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2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

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Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Handyman said:
All you guys are obviously lying or duped by bots Kepler told us Bernie Bros are a myth! ;) :p

I mean sure the dude probably hasnt left one of the coasts since Cornell last won a National Title he would know! :D

People need to stop worrying about Biden...the guy is an old out of touch crackpot that always finds a way to pee down his leg. If the Superdelegates still had uber power I would worry but he wont last long enough for them to factor in. He wont be coddled like Trump was once the big guns start falling and Super Tuesday will be the end of his run unless a miracle happens. He will need some left endorsements to have a chance and none of the Progressives are going to back him over a non-middle candidate or even Mayor Pete. Maybe if he kept his mouth shut for 5 seconds but he has shown for decades he cant do that. He is and always will be a gaff machine.

If anyone should drop for the sake of the country it is Joe. Let him go stump in the rust belt states than go back to the home ;)
Click to expand...

I disagree somewhat on Joe dropping out. He's serving an important purpose, which is to see how much of the Dem coalition is made up of his people - old timey working class Dems. If he get crushed we have our answer, but if he's a really tough out, especially in the Rust Belt, then Dems have to tailor their message a bit to keep them in the fold. Biden himself seems like a team player so I'm less worried about him.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go cash a bunch of checks from the fossil fuel industry. ;)
 
Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Handyman said:
All you guys are obviously lying or duped by bots Kepler told us Bernie Bros are a myth! ;) :p

I mean sure the dude probably hasnt left one of the coasts since Cornell last won a National Title he would know! :D

People need to stop worrying about Biden...the guy is an old out of touch crackpot that always finds a way to pee down his leg. If the Superdelegates still had uber power I would worry but he wont last long enough for them to factor in. He wont be coddled like Trump was once the big guns start falling and Super Tuesday will be the end of his run unless a miracle happens. He will need some left endorsements to have a chance and none of the Progressives are going to back him over a non-middle candidate or even Mayor Pete. Maybe if he kept his mouth shut for 5 seconds but he has shown for decades he cant do that. He is and always will be a gaff machine.

If anyone should drop for the sake of the country it is Joe. Let him go stump in the rust belt states than go back to the home ;)
Click to expand...

I never said anyone was lying. I said the size of the group is probably exaggerated and their decisive influence is probably a myth.

But I am surprised so many people know a Bernie Bro. For clarification: we're talking about a formerly dependable Democrat who backs Sanders and who won't vote for another candidate if Bernie doesn't get the nomination because they are butthurt, right? If there really are enough of them out there to make a difference, welp, OK then, I'm wrong.

I'd love to talk to these folks, because on wanting an economic revolution I'd put myself up against any of them. I believe I would be able to argue them out of it.

If on the other hand they are just Molotov cocktail throwers who latched onto Bernie the way others latched onto Dump, I'm not going near those folks. Some people just want to watch the world burn. Those were never votes we were getting anyway (a lot of the Jill Stein vote is this). Sanders got some because the closest planet to the Oort Cloud is going to grab some stray comets.

On Biden, the worry is less Biden, who may well fall apart because of his own cluelessness, but the steadfast Democratic party desire to climb back into their hole and pretend it's 1992 and we can win with triangulation again. Biden is only a symptom of that and if he falls somebody else will pick up the torch (many miles away, Terry McAuliffe is putting on the foil). That denial is lethal to the party and helps nobody but the entrenched interests while our nation dies.
 
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Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Kepler said:
But I am surprised so many people know a Bernie Bro. For clarification: we're talking about a formerly dependable Democrat who backs Sanders and who won't vote for another candidate if Bernie doesn't get the nomination because they are butthurt, right? If there really are enough of them out there to make a difference, welp, OK then, I'm wrong.
Click to expand...
Again, we have literal evidence/data that this group of people is significantly less of the population than Hillary dead enders in 2008. So even though someone claims to know a friend's brother's acquaintance on facebook who is more progressive than them and it makes them mad, the evidence makes it clear that it's not nearly as significant of a group as centrists make them out to be.
 
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Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

trixR4kids said:
Again, we have literal evidence/data that this group of people is significantly less of the population than Hillary dead enders in 2008. So even though someone claims to know a friend's brother's acquaintance on facebook who is more progressive than them and it makes them mad, the evidence makes it clear that it's not nearly as significant of a group as centrists make them out to be.
Click to expand...

Well, let's go beyond that assertion for a minute. I'd like to know who Bernie Bros are and what their deal is. If they are interested in Sanders because of his economic message then they're important because they're right. We just don't have that many allies when it comes to fiscal policies and an accurate understanding of the death throes of capitalism as it warps democracy into fascism. Anybody smart enough to have sussed that out needs to be recruited.

Things don't change in an orderly way unless people figure out what the problem is and where to go from there. Post-post Marxists, or whatever you call the people who have moved past both Marx and Adorno and are now building the next, forward-looking, technologically and historically savvy understanding of socialism, are about the only people who can prevent either the rightwing freefall into fascism or the centrist grind to a halt followed by civil disorder. Their kind of insight is likely accompanied by a peevish lack of sufferance of the slower kids in the class, and that can lead to nihilism. We need every cognitively capable person on deck to prevent a terrible 21st century. We need to reach these people and lay out an argument for a peaceful, inclusive reformation of society. There's no time for taking your ball and going home.

If nothing else, they aren't indifferent, so there's a place to start.
 
Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Rover said:
I disagree somewhat on Joe dropping out. He's serving an important purpose, which is to see how much of the Dem coalition is made up of his people - old timey working class Dems. If he get crushed we have our answer, but if he's a really tough out, especially in the Rust Belt, then Dems have to tailor their message a bit to keep them in the fold. Biden himself seems like a team player so I'm less worried about him.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go cash a bunch of checks from the fossil fuel industry. ;)
Click to expand...

Well I dont actually want him to, just saying I would rather he drop right now than Bernie. Neither has too at this point because none of this really matters.
 
Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Kepler said:
I never said anyone was lying. I said the size of the group is probably exaggerated and their decisive influence is probably a myth.

But I am surprised so many people know a Bernie Bro. For clarification: we're talking about a formerly dependable Democrat who backs Sanders and who won't vote for another candidate if Bernie doesn't get the nomination because they are butthurt, right? If there really are enough of them out there to make a difference, welp, OK then, I'm wrong.

I'd love to talk to these folks, because on wanting an economic revolution I'd put myself up against any of them. I believe I would be able to argue them out of it.

If on the other hand they are just Molotov cocktail throwers who latched onto Bernie the way others latched onto Dump, I'm not going near those folks. Some people just want to watch the world burn. Those were never votes we were getting anyway (a lot of the Jill Stein vote is this). Sanders got some because the closest planet to the Oort Cloud is going to grab some stray comets.

On Biden, the worry is less Biden, who may well fall apart because of his own cluelessness, but the steadfast Democratic party desire to climb back into their hole and pretend it's 1992 and we can win with triangulation again. Biden is only a symptom of that and if he falls somebody else will pick up the torch (many miles away, Terry McAuliffe is putting on the foil). That denial is lethal to the party and helps nobody but the entrenched interests while our nation dies.
Click to expand...

Bernie Bros arent necessarily Democrats, they are very uber left voters though. There is no one way to describe them though because, like with any type of voter, there is a spectrum of them. Some of them are what you describe often, people looking to watch the world burn. They agree with Bernie but more than that they hate all pols and the system and will vote for ONLY those they deem to be above the fray. If that means voting for a Trump so be it.

There are also the college students looking to make themselves feel smarter than they actually are. They think if they vote on principle their decision is the right one. These are the type of people who whine about doing their best. [insert quote from The Rock here] These are not unlike Nader voters in 2000. (of which I was one though only cause Minnesota was safe) They will NOT vote the "lesser of two options".

But most of the ones I have seen are the Far Left of the Dem Party who for years have sort of been like the Tea Party was prior to Obama being elected. They were there, and given bland vague platitudes but mostly ignored. Some are bitter, some feel cheated but in truth most of them are not unlike any small group amongst a majority...once they have a chance to organize and have someone who actually gives them a voice they will follow them to the ends of the Earth and back. Because they havent tasted the kind of success they have had of late (a Presidential Primary challenge that went the distance in '16...House members helping flip the House in '18) since lord knows when they dont all keep their eyes on the prize. Not exactly shocking it is human nature. They are now getting impatient and that is why they make political mistakes. Right now though change is seen as selling out.

They wont always be like this, as they gain experience they will get better. Right now though it is a holy quest for them.

note: Not all Bernie Supporters are this way obviously. I love Bernie going back a decade but I can also see the forest from the trees.

Others may have more insight...that is the basics of what I have seen though.
 
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Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Handyman said:
Bernie Bros arent necessarily Democrats, they are very uber left voters though. There is no one way to describe them though because, like with any type of voter, there is a spectrum of them. Some of them are what you describe often, people looking to watch the world burn. They agree with Bernie but more than that they hate all pols and the system and will vote for ONLY those they deem to be above the fray. If that means voting for a Trump so be it.

There are also the college students looking to make themselves feel smarter than they actually are. They think if they vote on principle their decision is the right one. These are the type of people who whine about doing their best. [insert quote from The Rock here] These are not unlike Nader voters in 2000. (of which I was one though only cause Minnesota was safe) They will NOT vote the "lesser of two options".

But most of the ones I have seen are the Far Left of the Dem Party who for years have sort of been like the Tea Party was prior to Obama being elected. They were there, and given bland vague platitudes but mostly ignored. Some are bitter, some feel cheated but in truth most of them are not unlike any small group amongst a majority...once they have a chance to organize and have someone who actually gives them a voice they will follow them to the ends of the Earth and back. Because they havent tasted the kind of success they have had of late (a Presidential Primary challenge that went the distance in '16...House members helping flip the House in '18) since lord knows when they dont all keep their eyes on the prize. Not exactly shocking it is human nature. They are now getting impatient and that is why they make political mistakes. Right now though change is seen as selling out.

They wont always be like this, as they gain experience they will get better. Right now though it is a holy quest for them.

note: Not all Bernie Supporters are this way obviously. I love Bernie going back a decade but I can also see the forest from the trees.

Others may have more insight...that is the basics of what I have seen though.
Click to expand...

I actually agree with a lot of this. Some of my posting on places like Kos is rear-guard action trying to keep our own forces from engaging too negatively with other Dems. But I gotta say, in the current climate that's mostly in self-defense now. In 2016 it was a rock fight with the Clintonistas but now it's dog pile on the rabbit with the party insiders and the remaining timeserver Clintonistas blaming all Sanders supporters because they don't want to look in the mirror. (Obama, very weirdly, left almost no legacy infrastructure at all. He was not fecund. There are no "Obamites.")

All of which is why I wish Sanders himself had stepped aside and gone balls deep into Warren. She's definitely a watered-down, capitalist-friendly version of Sanders, but she's the best we are going to do in this Timeline and she can be a bulwark against the Neoliberal pearl-clutching Clinton influence in the party.

The Democratic wing of the Democratic party has been out of power for a long time, and we are making some mistakes (the attacks on Pelosi were a bad self-pwn). And as you say, this new crop will learn with experience. I don't think they'll be as readily corrupted as the Boomers were. The Left activism I see now comes from a far more sincere place than the cloying pretensions of Generation Woodstock and is much less likely to be diverted into the self-absorption of that group. Today's Left actually seems to care more about others than themselves because they weren't raised with a silver spoon.
 
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Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

Kepler said:
Well, let's go beyond that assertion for a minute. I'd like to know who Bernie Bros are and what their deal is. If they are interested in Sanders because of his economic message then they're important because they're right. We just don't have that many allies when it comes to fiscal policies and an accurate understanding of the death throes of capitalism as it warps democracy into fascism. Anybody smart enough to have sussed that out needs to be recruited.

Things don't change in an orderly way unless people figure out what the problem is and where to go from there. Post-post Marxists, or whatever you call the people who have moved past both Marx and Adorno and are now building the next, forward-looking, technologically and historically savvy understanding of socialism, are about the only people who can prevent either the rightwing freefall into fascism or the centrist grind to a halt followed by civil disorder. Their kind of insight is likely accompanied by a peevish lack of sufferance of the slower kids in the class, and that can lead to nihilism. We need every cognitively capable person on deck to prevent a terrible 21st century. We need to reach these people and lay out an argument for a peaceful, inclusive reformation of society. There's no time for taking your ball and going home.

If nothing else, they aren't indifferent, so there's a place to start.
Click to expand...
I fully agree, all I'm saying is that there's dead enders in any large group of people and this particular group isn't exceptional in that regard or at the very least there isn't much evidence to support that theory.
 
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Re: 2020 Democrat Challengers Part II: There Can Be Only One

The problem Sanders is having is that many of his core supporters graduated and got jobs in the past 4 years! If you're 22 and fresh out of college but working at Starbucks with your degree in Latin or Fashion Design, the idea of taxing everyone making 50K a more a year to the hilt probably sounds good because you're a little bitter.

Fast forward several years later. You have a job in the city and have moved out of mom's basement. Maybe you've started out at 50K a year but you don't exactly feel "rich" nor do you want to be taxed extra to pay for universal basic income. You probably also don't consider yourself to be a "plute" even though your former friends who are still driving uber while living with their parents consider you to be one. That, and the general jerkiness of the average Sanders supporter, is what's killing the old coot's campaign.
 
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