2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

[ZedLeppelin]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

Maybe it's snobby or dismissive of me, but whenever I bring up that argument, someone inevitably brings up the 2010 title and I do tend to discount that one, as winning the NC in an Olympic year, when powerhouse schools are missing their top talent, doesn't hold the cache with me that it seems to with some others.

You must be talking about the year UMD won the national title without its own Olympians, too, and won it with their freshmen. Right?

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

You must be talking about the year UMD won the national title without its own Olympians, too, and won it with their freshmen. Right?

DOUBLE ROAST!

This is getting good.

 

[NMH]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

Are you saying that we should put an asterisk by Wisconsin's title in 2006?

Well I definitely didn't say asterisk anything, but I totally accept that that's a fair rebuttal to my point. If you'd like to hold that that title doesn't hold the same cache as others, I'd say that's a fair statement to make.

I admitted from the first that it was a snobby statement to make and I'll own it. I'm not trying to discredit that title, but it happens as a casualty of my bigger case, if that makes sense.

What I've always hated about the "what about 2010?" argument is that I feel it misses and ignores the bigger point, which is that Miller has/had gotten stale and stagnant. It's using a flimsy base to build the argument for Miller - to use the 2010 NC as a reason for keeping her is unstable at best. To justify keeping a coach on the shoulders of her winning the NC in a year when it was entirely up for grabs is not the best idea, IMO. So I find myself wanting to dismiss that title as not important or not as significant because I feel like it falsely inflates her accomplishments lately and gives false justification for keeping her.

To me the asterisk is "Shannon Miller hasn't done much with/for this team since 2008*
*with the exception of the 2010 NC, which was an Olympic year

Do others not agree that Miller has resisted change and adaptation? Because I feel like my bigger point got missed/ignored in favor of some likely deserved smack talk, but I'm curious if others view it that way.

I have to say that I personally don't like Miller - I dislike the on-ice antics and the post-game comments where she twists results (if you take away two of those goals, we only like by one, so losing by one to a top ranked team, I'll take it!) and and double-talks and essentially does whatever she can to make herself look better. But that's never been my argument for UMD to get a new coach. For me, my personal dislike of her doesn't come into the equation. I just don't think she's good for the future of their program or the future growth of the sport. I appreciate and honor what she did to build and lay a foundation, I just felt it was time to move on. I was saying this last season, so it has nothing to do with the current situation.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

Do others not agree that Miller has resisted change and adaptation? Because I feel like my bigger point got missed/ignored in favor of some likely deserved smack talk, but I'm curious if others view it that way.

No, I think she has changed and adapted throughout. I thought that her first three championship teams had a talent edge over most of her opponents. Neither her 2008 or 2010 teams were anywhere near as talented relative to the competition. I'm still not sure how she managed to steal the 2008 title from Wisconsin; I'd take the Wisconsin roster over the UMD crew on talent every time. Credit to people like Blais and Fridfinnson that they were able to produce for teams that really needed them to do so. I guess the Bulldogs had a better blue line, and that often gets overlooked when we analyze teams. But in 2010, Blais and Fridfinnson carried the heavy load offensively, and there was a lot of smoke and mirrors after that. Anybody who can win with that roster, Olympic year or not, can definitely coach.

As for the other point about Olympic years being lesser in any way, I'll agree to disagree. Minnesota came up short last year, and yes, they lost Kessel and Stecklein to the Olympics, but that was still one of the best Minnesota rosters ever. Had they won, I wouldn't have felt it was lesser in any way. They ultimately came up short to a Clarkson team that wasn't hurt by the Olympics, but I don't think the Golden Knights need think that championship is tainted in any way either.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

As for the other point about Olympic years being lesser in any way, I'll agree to disagree. Minnesota came up short last year, and yes, they lost Kessel and Stecklein to the Olympics, but that was still one of the best Minnesota rosters ever. Had they won, I wouldn't have felt it was lesser in any way. They ultimately came up short to a Clarkson team that wasn't hurt by the Olympics, but I don't think the Golden Knights need think that championship is tainted in any way either.

I think that tristar's point was a little different. It's not that anyone should celebrate an Olympic year national championship any less. It's that, in the very narrow sense of evaluating the abilities of a specific coach and how that coach's performance projects into the future, an Olympic year championship might need to be evaluated slightly differently. I think those are different things. It's worth keeping in mind whether an Olympic year national championship was won while other teams were missing top players and you weren't. (I have no idea how the 2010 Olympics affected UMD specifically.) I don't know that it would have a major effect on such an evaluation but it isn't that different than evaluating a coach's performance including the effects that injuries had.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

I have no idea how the 2010 Olympics affected UMD specifically.

In 2010 due to the Olympics, UMD lost Irwin, Martin, Holmlov, Winberg, and another Swedish players whose name escapes me for the whole season, Larocque for a semester, and Tuominen and Posa for several weeks. Other than possibly Wisconsin, who lost Mark Johnson, Knight, and Duggan, the Bulldogs were by far the most impacted.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

I think Jocelyne Larocque and Haley Irwin (Canada), and Kim Martin, Pernilla Winberg, Elin Holmlov and Jenni Asserholt (Sweden), were gone for all of 2010. Saara Tuominen and Heidi Pelttari (Finland), were gone for the Olympics but were back in time for the playoffs.

No, Larocque was definitely back for the second semester. I'm pretty sure the Finnish defenseman was Posa, not Pelttari, who was done after the 2008 championship, IIRC. Thanks, Asserholt was the name I was too lazy to look up.

 

[ZedLeppelin]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

No, Larocque was definitely back for the second semester. I'm pretty sure the Finnish defenseman was Posa, not Pelttari, who was done after the 2008 championship, IIRC. Thanks, Asserholt was the name I was too lazy to look up.

I think Larocque was back, yes. Argh, I can't keep these names straight.

 

[NMH]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

No, I think she has changed and adapted throughout. I thought that her first three championship teams had a talent edge over most of her opponents. Neither her 2008 or 2010 teams were anywhere near as talented relative to the competition. I'm still not sure how she managed to steal the 2008 title from Wisconsin; I'd take the Wisconsin roster over the UMD crew on talent every time. Credit to people like Blais and Fridfinnson that they were able to produce for teams that really needed them to do so. I guess the Bulldogs had a better blue line, and that often gets overlooked when we analyze teams. But in 2010, Blais and Fridfinnson carried the heavy load offensively, and there was a lot of smoke and mirrors after that. Anybody who can win with that roster, Olympic year or not, can definitely coach.

As for the other point about Olympic years being lesser in any way, I'll agree to disagree. Minnesota came up short last year, and yes, they lost Kessel and Stecklein to the Olympics, but that was still one of the best Minnesota rosters ever. Had they won, I wouldn't have felt it was lesser in any way. They ultimately came up short to a Clarkson team that wasn't hurt by the Olympics, but I don't think the Golden Knights need think that championship is tainted in any way either.

So I guess my question is more about how she recruits and views herself and her program, not her coaching ability/adaptability. As a newer fan, I don't know as much about those older championship teams, so I'll totally take your word on those and thank you the information.

It's felt like to me that with other programs doing a better job of pulling in the international talent that she/UMD used to mine, it's left UMD at a disadvantage and the coaching staff hasn't come up with new ideas or strategies for how to compete and stay relevant.
In my less kind moments, I have a view of Miller still imagining herself at the top of the heap, refusing to acknowledge that this is no longer the case. And somewhat stamping her foot that programs like NoDak are getting the international talent she used to unearth.

So maybe I'm totally wrong and I'm willing to learn and change my opinion. The view on it I had was UMD was successful in part bc of Miller pioneering the idea of mining international talent and bringing those players to the US for college. The above list of who played in the Olympics for the Bulldogs is a good example. But in recent years it's arguable that other programs are doing a better job of that particular strategy.

Eeyore did a good job of summing up my point about why I evaluate those years differently. That being said, I was being snobby and I shouldn't diminish what that year's UMD team did. They were missing major talent. I was constructing a narrative to fit my Miller dislike/argument and it doesn't stand up. To hold 2010 to that standard casts an unfair light on Clarkson last year, as your analysis of that Gopher team so kindly puts it. So yeah, I can stand down from that.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

Neither her 2008 or 2010 teams were anywhere near as talented relative to the competition. I'm still not sure how she managed to steal the 2008 title from Wisconsin;

I think they stole it from UNH in a barn burner the game before.

The Championship game was a real come down with UMD blanking UW 4-0..it was all very anti climactic after the UNH game.

 

[HockeyEast33]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

I'm not the biggest Miller fan and I've been the first to say in recent years that I think it's time for a changing of the guard at UMD, but obviously this whole thing could/should have been handled with some more finesse. If nothing else, UMD has shown itself to be less than trustworthy and loyal and I can't imagine that's attractive to prospective coaches. If they treat a revered coach in this manner, what's to make an up-and-comer feel comfortable in their position?

I've felt of late that UMD has suffered from Miller's inability to, essentially, get over herself and update her strategies. What she did in the early years and how she mined for international talent to keep her smaller, "less desirable" school competitive against the Minny's and Wisco's of the world was spectacular. But now NoDak and east coast schools are out-UMD'ing UMD and UMD is straggling behind. Miller has proven incapable of adapting - she seems to just want to rest on her previous success and pout about how others took her idea instead of competing for those international players, finding new strategies and attempting to keep UMD competitive. That lack of adaptation has made her stale, and IMO, useless to the school and her program. Even still, she did not deserve this treatment. She earned better.

Maybe it's snobby or dismissive of me, but whenever I bring up that argument, someone inevitably brings up the 2010 title and I do tend to discount that one, as winning the NC in an Olympic year, when powerhouse schools are missing their top talent, doesn't hold the cache with me that it seems to with some others. So while on the surface you can say she's just four years removed from her last title, it's disingenuous at best.

Either way, I definitely feel the success of Bemidji State this season is a big factor here. The Beavers have handled the top of the WCHA thus far this season in surprising fashion. They're doing it with a first-year coach who's earning less than half Miller was. IMO, UMD's higher-ups saw Bemidji State as the blueprint for (much cheaper) success.

I hope for the best for the team and the future of the program - I'd hate to see this be a harbinger of bad things for them. While I've always had a tongue-in-cheek banter and dislike for Miller, I've always had the best interest of the future of the program in mind. I do think it was stagnant under her and while I hate how this went down, I can only hope the team itself sees improvement because of this.

Couple of thoughts:

- I agree that UMD didn't handle this well. They come off as inflexible and coarse/harsh. Kind of reeks of the Digit Murphy dismissal at Brown that dragged on for months.

- I don't know why UMD decided to make this announcement now (unless there was a notification clause in Miller's contract that required them to give her multi-months notice of impending non-renewal). The team is playing well and competing better this season than any of the past few. They could have waited until the end of the season and done this quickly and without the spectacle of a 3 month drawn-out fiasco for Miller and UMD. They might say that they wanted to give Miller the maximum time to find a new job, but where would she be looking at this point - there are no open D1 coach positions and likely won't be until the end of the season?

 

[ARM]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

I think they stole it from UNH in a barn burner the game before.

But I understand how they stole it from UNH: Kim Martin and a few timely goals. Even after watching the championship game, I'm still not sure how it unfolded that way. The years on either side of it showed that the Badgers had more talent. Maybe my views on that UMD squad are colored by having watched them lose to Minnesota three times -- with Gavrilova.

Tristar, Miller for me is a complete paradox. She can be a genius one minute and act like a stubborn child the next. As for recruiting, I've never fully understood it. I get bringing in stars from Europe. Lately, it was almost like she believed anything she touched would turn to gold, so she'd bring in projects from the corners of the globe. There were many reasons why her talent level wasn't as good, and North Dakota hurt her both in Europe and the nearby Canadian provinces.

 

[zoofer]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

Thanks to Blackbeard and Arm for giving UNH props for the 2008 game! It was Martin and their 2 pp goals vs our 1, if I remember correctly.....just goes to show you TTT, that Dickens got it right when he wrote," It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...." You just never know what cards you'll be dealt.....

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

But I understand how they stole it from UNH: Kim Martin and a few timely goals. Even after watching the championship game, I'm still not sure how it unfolded that way. The years on either side of it showed that the Badgers had more talent.

UW was flat in the first period, approaching being disinterested I thought and I remember wondering what the problem was. Johnson must have gone into motivational mode in between periods because they were a very different team in the 2nd. But it was not to be, the 3rd for them was more like the 1st and that was that. Glad UMD won but very disappointed that it wasn't better contested.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

No, Larocque was definitely back for the second semester. I'm pretty sure the Finnish defenseman was Posa, not Pelttari, who was done after the 2008 championship, IIRC. Thanks, Asserholt was the name I was too lazy to look up.

Correct on all counts, J-Rock was cut by Team Canada in Dec/09 and I recall your expressing serious dismay at the time, (and rightfully so), because she was going to be back on the 'Dog blueline in January...although Pelttari was no longer playing for the 'Dogs she did play for Finland in Vancouver in 2010 picking up a bronze medal for her troubles...a few months after breaking her ankle playing soccer for UMD! That always amazed me.

 

[CrankIt]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

For those referring to the lack of recruitment of European players by Coach Miller, it is widely known that the recruiting budget and overall budget was drastically slashed when Chancellor Martin retired. There is also an extreme lack of cooperation in the admissions department getting the European players the tools they need to be accepted into the school. For multiple kids to miss passing their writing test by ONE point and the university forceing them to wait an entire year instead of coming up with a solution shows a lack of interest in women's hockey by the administration. One of the reasons this years freshman class is so large is because a few of those players were supposed to join the team last year but could not because of test scores.

 

[shelfit]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

With the way the admin has handled this, I will be rooting for the Bulldogs to win it all this year. This will be their last chance because after she's gone they will never win another one ever again. Mark my words.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

With the way the admin has handled this, I will be rooting for the Bulldogs to win it all this year. This will be their last chance because after she's gone they will never win another one ever again. Mark my words.

A variation of the theme...Hopefully all in good fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AK9dJ_FThg

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

For those referring to the lack of recruitment of European players by Coach Miller, it is widely known that the recruiting budget and overall budget was drastically slashed when Chancellor Martin retired. There is also an extreme lack of cooperation in the admissions department getting the European players the tools they need to be accepted into the school. For multiple kids to miss passing their writing test by ONE point and the university forceing them to wait an entire year instead of coming up with a solution shows a lack of interest in women's hockey by the administration. One of the reasons this years freshman class is so large is because a few of those players were supposed to join the team last year but could not because of test scores.

To the extent that what you say is accurate that would certainly create a lot of frustration for Miller...for any coach in that situation. At the same time I recall broaching that topic with her several years ago expressing my amazement that several student/athletes with barely a working knowledge of English, over the years, could voluntarily immerse themselves in not only a completely English environment but one at the university level, asking her what sort of difficulties they encountered. Her response was that there were no difficulties that she was aware of, that somehow they manage and succeed. I had my doubts about it being that simple.

 

[ARM]

Re: 2014-2015 University of Minnesota-Duluth Bulldogs Womens Hockey

… student/athletes with barely a working knowledge of English, over the years, could voluntarily immerse themselves in not only a completely English environment but one at the university level, asking her what sort of difficulties they encountered. Her response was that there were no difficulties that she was aware of, that somehow they manage and succeed.

Madison Packer told a story on a recent UND at UW webcast about a coach dropping Ann-Renee Desbiens off with her and having to help her get immersed in her new life in Madison with Desbiens possessing very limited command of English. I'd imagine that new teammates are the first stop for most of the questions involving language or anything else that they need in day-to-day life. It has probably been easier in Duluth because there are so many other players that are or have been in the same predicament.