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2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Fishman'81 said:
With all due respect, not exactly, IMO...

The PS tournaments, as silly as they are insofar as determining AQs as a general rule, can still serve a purpose in terms of providing a little more comparative data when a couple of teams in the same conference are within a nose of each other. In that respect, these PS shows are not entirely a waste of time, but only if an AQ isn't a low-hanging fruit for some team that has under-performed all season long to snatch-up on the cheap.

Thing is, that should never be the case.

For example, if Genny had won the '12/'13 SUNYAC tournament, or if (say) Amherst had won their conference tournament, two worthy teams (Bowdoin and Plattsburgh) would have stayed home for the NCAAs, while the cherry-pickers would have received gift-berths. That's simply not a fair situation; it negates the RS entirely.

I don't mind PS tournaments couched as spectacles (they are fun to watch), but it's just silly to use them to select a representative of your conference... If that's all that counts in a particular conference, why play the long and much more meaningful RS?
Click to expand...

Should the NCAA Champion be decided by the Regular Season too? After all, the year that Neumann won, they clearly weren't the 'worthy team' that should have won the title, Plattsburgh was.
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Ozz said:
Should the NCAA Champion be decided by the Regular Season too? After all, the year that Neumann won, they clearly weren't the 'worthy team' that should have won the title, Plattsburgh was.
Click to expand...
Can we blame RIT??
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Ozz said:
Should the NCAA Champion be decided by the Regular Season too? After all, the year that Neumann won, they clearly weren't the 'worthy team' that should have won the title, Plattsburgh was.
Click to expand...

It's really about the worthy teams getting in, in the first place... (Anything can happen in a short weekend hockey tournament; that's my point.)

And, would it be a better measure of merit if the RS counted more than the few PS games? Absolutely.

I would think that that much would be obvious to anyone.
 
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Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

norm1909 said:
I am a bit surprised that the Fish would be a creationist, the silly PS tournaments are in fact the epitome of the evolutionary survival of the fittest. Unlike their RS compatriot, the PS champion not only had to the survive RS's day to day grind and roster changes in order to reach the PS, they also had to survive their way through the "top vs bottom" PS bracket. Also, unlike their RS compatriot, the PS champion reflects the final result of the practice, training, coaching, molding and tweaking of the RS that results in them being, not exactly, IMO... the best representative their league has to offer.
Click to expand...

You do understand the concept of "sample-size", right, Larry?

A season is a season; it doesn't boil-down to a couple of games in March, as though those few games are the "epitome" of an entire year's body of work.

PS tournaments should not even exist at the D-3 level... They are just a copy-cat version of what D-1 does for the extra TV money, and usually involving big-time basketball.

Last year was a perfect storm in D-3 hockey because the best RS teams won their tournaments, but it might well have turned-out otherwise. (Would you have thought it fair if Genny had been lucky enough to have knocked-out Platty, for instance, and gained a berth at the Cardinals' expense on that one win alone?)

I seriously doubt that you'd be singing your same old tune on here if something like that had happened.
 
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Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Fishman'81 said:
You do understand the concept of "sample-size", right, Larry?

A season is a season; it doesn't boil-down to a couple of games in March, as though those few games are the "epitome" of an entire year's body of work.

PS tournaments should not even exist at the D-3 level... They are just a copy-cat version of what D-1 does for the extra TV money, and usually involving big-time basketball.

Last year was a perfect storm in D-3 hockey because the best RS teams won their tournaments, but it might well have turned-out otherwise. (Would you have thought it fair if Genny had been lucky enough to have knocked-out Platty, for instance, and gained a berth at the Cardinals' expense on that one win alone?)

I seriously doubt that you'd be singing your same old tune on here if something like that had happened.
Click to expand...

It has happened a few times yes and watching your teams that you think don't deserve it "ECAC NE, old MCHA, MASCAC" or a team that made a "run" in the post season made it in over Plattsburgh. Should their be more Pool C bids? Yes. Would it help those "Plattsburgh" teams get in if they had a hiccup in the one and done post season? Yes. But as has been explained to you over and over and over, the Pool bids are based on ratio thats used for ALL of DIII.

Post season tournaments exist in nearly every level. What not D3? Makes no sense. I will say this tho. I've never once been an advocate for the one and done format and never will. Yes its helped Plattsburgh pull off some big wins, but they've also moved on more from a 3 game series more so. I can partially see the Phinal Phor being a single game, but IMO ALL playoffs prior to should be a 3 game series to really get the best team into the playoffs and advance. I understand why the SUNYAC went to the single game and why the NCAA said it cost too much for the prelim rounds to go back to a 2 game series (mini game).

Once again you're missing the point. Blaming the NCAA is exactly the opposite of what happens. EACH Conference CAN give their RS Champion, its not up to the NCAA how or who gets an AQ. However, as dumb as it is to you, the NCAA actually looks at the WHOLE season in choosing their at-large bids and treats the RS (for the most part) as "just another game".
 
Fishman'81 said:
Last year was a perfect storm in D-3 hockey because the best RS teams won their tournaments, but it might well have turned-out otherwise. (Would you have thought it fair if Genny had been lucky enough to have knocked-out Platty, for instance, and gained a berth at the Cardinals' expense on that one win alone?)
Click to expand...

Oswego was the only team in the Frozen four who won their tournament, the other three teams got Pool C bids
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

PSUChamps2001 said:
It has happened a few times yes and watching your teams that you think don't deserve it "ECAC NE, old MCHA, MASCAC" or a team that made a "run" in the post season made it in over Plattsburgh. Should their be more Pool C bids? Yes. Would it help those "Plattsburgh" teams get in if they had a hiccup in the one and done post season? Yes. But as has been explained to you over and over and over, the Pool bids are based on ratio thats used for ALL of DIII.

Post season tournaments exist in nearly every level. What not D3? Makes no sense. I will say this tho. I've never once been an advocate for the one and done format and never will. Yes its helped Plattsburgh pull off some big wins, but they've also moved on more from a 3 game series more so. I can partially see the Phinal Phor being a single game, but IMO ALL playoffs prior to should be a 3 game series to really get the best team into the playoffs and advance. I understand why the SUNYAC went to the single game and why the NCAA said it cost too much for the prelim rounds to go back to a 2 game series (mini game).

Once again you're missing the point. Blaming the NCAA is exactly the opposite of what happens. EACH Conference CAN give their RS Champion, its not up to the NCAA how or who gets an AQ. However, as dumb as it is to you, the NCAA actually looks at the WHOLE season in choosing their at-large bids and treats the RS (for the most part) as "just another game".
Click to expand...

+1. There's a reason every major sport other than football plays a playoff series instead of a playoff game. In one game, anything can happen. Players have a bad night. A series is more representative of who is the better team overall.
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

OSU2010 said:
Oswego was the only team in the Frozen four who won their tournament, the other three teams got Pool C bids
Click to expand...

There you go, bringing facts into the discussion to refute a point. Shameful......
:p
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Fishman'81 said:
You do understand the concept of "sample-size", right, Larry?

A season is a season; it doesn't boil-down to a couple of games in March, as though those few games are the "epitome" of an entire year's body of work.

PS tournaments should not even exist at the D-3 level... They are just a copy-cat version of what D-1 does for the extra TV money, and usually involving big-time basketball.

Last year was a perfect storm in D-3 hockey because the best RS teams won their tournaments, but it might well have turned-out otherwise. (Would you have thought it fair if Genny had been lucky enough to have knocked-out Platty, for instance, and gained a berth at the Cardinals' expense on that one win alone?)

I seriously doubt that you'd be singing your same old tune on here if something like that had happened.
Click to expand...

Do you understand the concept of "null hypothesis"?
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

OSU2010 said:
Oswego was the only team in the Frozen four who won their tournament, the other three teams got Pool C bids
Click to expand...

Why are you singling-out only the FF teams..? I was talking about the NCAA field as a whole.

Disregarding the AQs from conferences that had no legitimate NCAA participants in the first place, things worked out well for D-3 last season.

Yet, if Bowdoin, Norwich and Oswego/Platty had been displaced during the little weekend tournaments that many of you hold so dear, the NCAA field might well have been something of a travesty.

As it turned out, Hobart was the only truly deserving team that got jobbed, and that constitutes a very good year for the D-3 selection process.

The committee got lucky on that one; there were no bad choices to be made.
 
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Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

PSUChamps2001 said:
Once again you're missing the point. Blaming the NCAA is exactly the opposite of what happens. EACH Conference CAN give their RS Champion, its not up to the NCAA how or who gets an AQ. However, as dumb as it is to you, the NCAA actually looks at the WHOLE season in choosing their at-large bids and treats the RS (for the most part) as "just another game".
Click to expand...

But Champs, they don't... And I think you're missing the point here.

It's completely immaterial who makes the decision re: how the AQ is determined. I'm not "blaming" any particular entity here, because it's basically been a conspiracy of dunces... The only thing that matters in terms of fairness is how it's chosen, and it's abundantly clear that a ~20-game season should reasonably carry far more weight than a few games tacked-on at its conclusion.

Many of you love to pile-on, nit-pick and play semantics, but I'd bet my last dollar that none of you fine and courageous fellows would be anything less than apoplectic if some cellar-dweller from your home conference got hot/lucky and pulled an AQ out of its azz to displace your favorite team some season or another, while having compiled a vastly inferior resume in its RS.

(Hell, I'd bet my last penny on that one.)
 
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Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Fishman'81 said:
But Champs, they don't... And I think you're missing the point here.

It's completely immaterial who makes the decision re: how the AQ is determined. I'm not "blaming" any particular entity here, because it's basically been a conspiracy of dunces... The only thing that matters in terms of fairness is how it's chosen, and it's abundantly clear that a ~20-game season should reasonably carry far more weight than a few games tacked-on at its conclusion.

Many of you love to pile-on, nit-pick and play semantics, but I'd bet my last dollar that none of you fine and courageous fellows would be anything less than apoplectic if some cellar-dweller from your home conference got hot/lucky and pulled an AQ out of its azz to displace your favorite team some season or another, while having compiled a vastly inferior resume in its RS.

(Hell, I'd bet my last penny on that one.)
Click to expand...

The "~20-game season" carries 100% of the weight in determining the post season brackets. :eek:

As for your last premise, I would be bummed my season ended, but I wouldn't forget that I love Cinderella teams. :cool:

You really should stick to fishing. :p
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Fishman'81 said:
Many of you love to pile-on, nit-pick and play semantics, but I'd bet my last dollar that none of you fine and courageous fellows would be anything less than apoplectic if some cellar-dweller from your home conference got hot/lucky and pulled an AQ out of its azz to displace your favorite team some season or another, while having compiled a vastly inferior resume in its RS.

(Hell, I'd bet my last penny on that one.)
Click to expand...



Fishman'81 said:
Yet, if Bowdoin, Norwich and Oswego/Platty had been displaced during the little weekend tournaments that many of you hold so dear, the NCAA field might well have been something of a travesty.
Click to expand...

Norwich was displaced during the East tournament. And its resume allowed it to be selected as an at large.
In fact, Norwich lost the Ecac East postseason tournament 4 other times:
2008-9 to Umass Boston
2005-6 to Babson
2003-4 to NEC
2000-1 to NEC

Was I disappointed? Yes. Apopolectic? No. You now have zero cents (sense?) left.
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Fishman'81 said:
A season is a season; it doesn't boil-down to a couple of games in March, as though those few games are the "epitome" of an entire year's body of work.

PS tournaments should not even exist at the D-3 level... They are just a copy-cat version of what D-1 does for the extra TV money, and usually involving big-time basketball.
Click to expand...

Question...How do you propose crowning an NCAA D-3 Hockey Champion?
 
Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

norm1909 said:
The "~20-game season" carries 100% of the weight in determining the post season brackets. :eek:

As for your last premise, I would be bummed my season ended, but I wouldn't forget that I love Cinderella teams. :cool:

You really should stick to fishing. :p
Click to expand...

That the RS standings determine the PS brackets does not in any way preclude the possibility of an unworthy team winning 2 or 3 games to usurp an NCAA berth from a team that has earned it over the long haul, Larry... There is no plausible reason whatsoever for awarding even an outside chance of a berth to most of the teams who get such an opportunity via the dumb construct of the extraneous "conference tournament".

This should be an easy concept to grasp, yet you repeatedly miss the point... Glad that I don't have to attempt to teach you the intricacies of matching the hatch.

;)
 
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Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

jerrynu26 said:
Norwich was displaced during the East tournament. And its resume allowed it to be selected as an at large.
In fact, Norwich lost the Ecac East postseason tournament 4 other times:
2008-9 to Umass Boston
2005-6 to Babson
2003-4 to NEC
2000-1 to NEC

Was I disappointed? Yes. Apopolectic? No. You now have zero cents (sense?) left.
Click to expand...

Nobody is "displaced" if they get in despite a tournament upset. (Geez.) But if enough lucky AQs come out of nowhere, truly deserving teams are left behind.

Do you really think that this situation is equitable?
 
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Re: 2013-14 Pre Season banter. Put out the SOS and save us all!!

Ozz said:
Question...How do you propose crowning an NCAA D-3 Hockey Champion?
Click to expand...

(I get you; there has to be a tournament at some point, yes... My point is that there is a better way to select those that are given the opportunity to play for a NC.)

This is how I'd do it: play a conference tournament or not, but have those games afforded no more import than RS games, then use an objective metric to choose the NCAA field of 11 on the basis of every available result, without weighting tournament games more heavily than RS games.

Next, award the higher seeds home-ice until the FF, and see what happens, just as D-3 does now... (Granted, there would still be some controversy re: the final few selections, but it wouldn't be about a #37 RPI ousting a #9 via a silly AQ, it would be about a couple of teams -all with good resumes and within a nose of each other- with insufficient room for them all.)

That's as simple, as transparent, and as fair as Life gets, IMO.
 
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