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2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

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Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Honest question: How many people that are of legal voting age do not have photo ID's? I don't think I've ever met one.

Any cost to supply the free ID's to the VERY few that don't have them was greatly exaggerated in those estimates. They sound more like numbers pulled out of thin air to use in scare tactic political ads.

Exactly. Everyone already has the right to a free id, so we're arguing over the cost of something that people simply aren't taking advantage of? What if all these people decided to get one just for fun, or because you need one to rent a table at the local pool hall? All that money will need to be paid anyways.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

The last election for senate was settled by a very small margin. I think it was about 200 votes. Are you telling me that none of those were fraudulant? This is obviously a problem and this ammendment in MN was worded so broadly that I have no idea how people were reading in all these costs.

Are you assuming that there were at least 201 fradulant votes for the winner and none for the loser? The problem with the voter fraud thing is that people naturally assume that the other party voters are committing all of the fraud and their party voters are not.

We as a nation have much, much, much more important things to worry about than if there is (percentage wise) a small number of voter fraud. Heck, lets start with the pathetic voter turnout and go from there......
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Here in Maine a photo ID costs $15 vs a driver's license which costs $35. We don't get much for free.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

The story I heard was that Christie and Bloomberg were told "be nice and you'll get disaster money quicker." Well - if you're first responsibility is to your constituents, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Christie may have killed any chance to get the GOP 2016 nomination. OK, he's good for NJ (would you rather have Corzine??) and, while blunt, seems to be honest.

The money was coming, it just got there quicker than the usual federal bureaucracy is capable.

Both Bloomberg and Christie showed leadership before and after the Prez did his visit. Even if the President did not make a visit, the NE was going blue no matter what. But Christie said nothing but nice things about somebody running against his party's nominee. If the $$ story is correct, I don't blame him.
So, I am curious- what exactly were they supposed to do- be partisan polititians in the middle of a crisis because they should not take their eyes off the main prize? They behaved as they should have- all of them- and Romney too. We have become so cynical that behaving in an intelligent, reasonable manner has to have ulterior motives.

That's not how the system is set up les. Victory = majority of electoral college votes. If Victory = popular vote campaigns would be maximizing that instead. How much time did Obama spend in California vs New Hampshire? I'm guessing more in NH because CA was already in the bag in the only contest that counts. Now if you changed the rules and winning the national vote was the deciding factor Obama would have spent more time churning out the vote in his core states, which for the most part are larger than GOP ones, hence the potential for the landslide popular vote margins you speak of.
I am not advocating a change in system. I am just saying that claiming a mandate when the popular vote is so close seems rather foolish. It ignores the population who still have the ability to vote yay or nay for their state officials if the officials forget they don't have a 'mandate' from their consituants. THere is a difference between a victory and a mandate. This was a victory, not a mandate
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

How the hell do people not have photo ID's? You can get an ID card for FREE in Minnesota, terrible argument. Common Sense.

It isn't free in MN (from mn.gov)
Fee:
Under age 65 - $17.25

Age 65 and older - $11

On top of that you have to have a certified birth certificate (which requires a fee) and another form of identification (also certified, thus most likely another fee).

Info Link

So, at a minimum the state would have to cover all of the fees directly associated with getting the ID card (or reduce the requirements for getting the ID card which negates the purpose of needing an ID card to vote).
 
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Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

They sound more like numbers pulled out of thin air to use in scare tactic political ads.


Just like theories about voter fraud that in reality doesn't exist. Common sense, no?
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

What's easy for many isn't so easy for others. Many of the people for whom its hard to get an ID don't have access to a valid birth certificate. The problem disproportionately affects the elderly and naturalized citizens.

Give me a number. How many people to you really think this is a problem for? Do you know anyone who tried to get an id and failed? Other than the one or two annecdotes in the paper you've seen. I think you may be the one creating a problem where one doesn't exist with this argument.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Are you assuming that there were at least 201 fradulant votes for the winner and none for the loser? The problem with the voter fraud thing is that people naturally assume that the other party voters are committing all of the fraud and their party voters are not.

We as a nation have much, much, much more important things to worry about than if there is (percentage wise) a small number of voter fraud. Heck, lets start with the pathetic voter turnout and go from there......

MN consistently leads the nation in voter turnout. So I would think that due to volume it would be more of an issue here than elsewhere.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Give me a number. How many people to you really think this is a problem for? Do you know anyone who tried to get an id and failed? Other than the one or two annecdotes in the paper you've seen. I think you may be the one creating a problem where one doesn't exist with this argument.

Well since I'm sure you're really interested in reading the research on this issue: http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/research_on_voter_id/
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

How would it disenfranchise people?

It "disenfranchises" all those who have become accustomed to voting more than once; it "disenfranchises" all those dead people who somehow wind up voting anyway; it "disenfranchises" all those felons who somehow manage to vote from their prison cells......;)
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Honest question: How many people that are of legal voting age do not have photo ID's? I don't think I've ever met one.

Both my Grandmother and my Aunt do not have picture ID's. Mostly because neither one of them drives and they have no need for it.

What's easy for many isn't so easy for others. Many of the people for whom its hard to get an ID don't have access to a valid birth certificate. The problem disproportionately affects the elderly and naturalized citizens.

Exactly.

Exactly. Everyone already has the right to a free id

Picture ID's are not free in NY.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

So we want to wait until voter fraud actually happens before we fix it? Sounds typical.

Just like worrying about phantom problems instead of doing something about the real problems that already exist in this country. Typical.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

How the hell do people not have photo ID's? You can get an ID card for FREE in Minnesota, terrible argument. Common Sense.
If you live in a city and don't need to drink why would you need an ID- you don't need one to drive, what else whould you need it for?

Honest question: How many people that are of legal voting age do not have photo ID's? I don't think I've ever met one.

Any cost to supply the free ID's to the VERY few that don't have them was greatly exaggerated in those estimates. They sound more like numbers pulled out of thin air to use in scare tactic political ads.
There are a number of people who would have a hard time to get the right papers- even if you take out the imported people. You could have quite a journey to get to the document. My Mum lives in a condo unit in a suburban town. She has a hard time driving and lives more than a mile from the nearest bus line. If she took public transport it would take her about 3 hours to get to the town hall, do her business and get home. That is if she was able to have her home town mail her a certified certificate because that is > 1 hr away. My cousin no longer drives so has no photo ID. She lives in a suburb of Boston. It would take her about the same amount of time to accomplish getting to and from town hall. She is still sharp as a tack but very frail. She would find a way to make it so she could vote but it would be a significant hardship for her. It is not realistic to dismiss people having a hard time. Some of the people who would be the most affected would be the people who were voting long before we were born.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Give me a number. How many people to you really think this is a problem for? Do you know anyone who tried to get an id and failed? Other than the one or two annecdotes in the paper you've seen. I think you may be the one creating a problem where one doesn't exist with this argument.

Sort of like the notion of voter fraud?

I'm not trying to be snarky, and I don't doubt the motivations of individuals on this issue. I actually think it's reasonable to produce an ID to vote. Then again, I'm white and already possess several forms of photo ID that I always carry with me. No big deal - for me.

Red flags go up though when I see one party get behind this issue out of the blue on the national stage. Their motivations are clearly different than yours or mine and when you consider their motivations, it's clear that the intent here is to influence elections.

If there's no documented large scale problem, why spend the political capital on it? The only answer is to influence elections.

That makes it a non-starter for me.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Just like worrying about phantom problems instead of doing something about the real problems that already exist in this country. Typical.
There hasn't been a real problem that has been fixed in the last 4 years. I don't see that changing now.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Well since I'm sure you're really interested in reading the research on this issue: http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/research_on_voter_id/

http://brennan.3cdn.net/9dfd902a36ac8a7a27_aqm6b0w84.pdf

From your own link. I found this after about 30 seconds of reading. Clearly says that voter ID laws are not a problem and do not effect voting. One of the states they studies found that 0.3% of potential voters were unable to present an ID. If they are unable to get an ID maybe they don't deserve the priviliage of voting.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

Sort of like the notion of voter fraud?

I'm not trying to be snarky, and I don't doubt the motivations of individuals on this issue. I actually think it's reasonable to produce an ID to vote. Then again, I'm white and already possess several forms of photo ID that I always carry with me. No big deal - for me.

Red flags go up though when I see one party get behind this issue out of the blue on the national stage. Their motivations are clearly different than yours or mine and when you consider their motivations, it's clear that the intent here is to influence elections.

If there's no documented large scale problem, why spend the political capital on it? The only answer is to influence elections.

That makes it a non-starter for me.

That was exactly my point in using almost the exact same words used to describe the "problem". Turn it around to show how poor of an argument it was.

There have been documented problems about this. ACORN anyone?

This won't be a big deal for me either. But the thing I don't get is why there is so much resistance. Why is it so much to ask to prove you are a legal citizen with the right to vote before doing so? I just don't get it.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

If a cop ask a poor folk for ID, can they say "I'm po' and don't have any" and walk.

All these folks then can't drive. Don't have credit cards. Don't have any type of bank account.
Don't you need ID to go set up welfare? How do you cash your welfare check? Social security check?
Again, you can't open a bank account without an ID

If you don't and take your checks (any, all) to Walmart or western union to cash, don't ThEY require ID confirmation??

So now how many people are we talking about now?

I would think in this day and age having some form of ID is a given.
 
Re: 2012 Presidential Election 5: Election Day Countdown

So we want to wait until voter fraud actually happens before we fix it? Sounds typical.

Concerning ourselves with actual issues first instead of shadows dancing in your head? Yeah, I view that as both typical and sane.
 
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