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2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Notfromaroundhere's point is well taken, even if it is just ever so slightly embellished. ;)

I really thought the next thing hdbub59 was going to say was let's give medals to all players at Nationals, not just the winners. In fact...let's take a cue from NCAA basketball, and invite the 64, no wait, 65 best teams!

I'd say if NAHA et al can simply follow the rules of participation, why not let them in? The basic rules are simple:

1.) Submit your roster to your district registrar by the due date, usually in November
2.) Pay your fee (duh, right?)
3.) Make sure none of your players are on anyone else's national bound roster
4.) Make sure your players ages are appropriate
5.) Have your team play 14 games under USA Hockey rules against USA Hockey teams, with USA Hockey officials, and keep your official USA Hockey Scoresheets
6.) Ensure that each player participates individually in 10 of your 14 games

Any other basic rules? I think that's it....then pay your district tournament fee, and go play and win your district.

As for the argument about players and teams practicing all year, most New England Club team players also play for a New England prep school or public high school from November through February, sometimes while still playing club on the weekend. These are hardly the kind of youth teams that practice once or twice a week!

The more I hear and read about it, the more I don't understand the NAHA exclusion, and the admission of NSA to Nationals strikes me as a slap in the face. Like I said earlier, USA Hockey basically said to NAHA "no you can't play with us cool kids, go play with the geeks over there".
 
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Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

OMG! They might be getting better practicing together more? :eek: Can't have that now, can we? :rolleyes: Let's exclude all the good teams so we can tell our mediocre kids they are the best. ;)

Did you just walk out of mite hockey or something? It is hardly news that SSM has been playing at Nationals for more years than I can remember.

Subtle hint, you aren't going to find too many supporters here. The best players want to play against all challengers. The best programs find a way to compete. Welcome to the big leauges.

Youth hockey's the big leagues? If three prep schools are allowed in it, then why aren't the rest of them in it? The point of prep school is obviously to get more practice and improve on schools but shouldn't they want to compete with other schools that are doing the SAME? They are not youth hockey teams and therefore don't belong in a youth hockey tournament, they have their own things. I think that at this age, the kids that are going to college know it, so why not let some others be in on a shot at a big time championship? Do D3 teams say they're the best in the country when they win a National Championship? It's different levels.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Youth hockey's the big leagues? If three prep schools are allowed in it, then why aren't the rest of them in it? The point of prep school is obviously to get more practice and improve on schools but shouldn't they want to compete with other schools that are doing the SAME? They are not youth hockey teams and therefore don't belong in a youth hockey tournament, they have their own things. I think that at this age, the kids that are going to college know it, so why not let some others be in on a shot at a big time championship? Do D3 teams say they're the best in the country when they win a National Championship? It's different levels.

I'm taking your side.

I don’t see the issue being top programs wanting to play against top talent. Here in New England, if your considered top talent then you go to a top prep school (or play for a public school) and also choose to play for a top club team. Allowing a school like Shattuck to compete in Nationals, a boarding school that attracts all nearby talent because of a lack of competition with similar schools anywhere in the Midwest, is a serious advantage.

I think Nobles should have all their players sign up for hockey as an independent project during the spring term and then send their team to nationals. Or maybe a different prep team, because they’d have a throw down with Carl Grey about which roster a kid would end up on.

Actually that wouldn’t even be an issue since I would guess any kid would probably choose Assabet because no matter how dominating Nobles may be in the NEPSA, they still do not completely monopolize on regional talent because the League itself is so competitive. That’s what Assabet, a competitive youth organization does.
 
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Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I'm taking your side.

I don’t see the issue being top programs wanting to play against top talent. Here in New England, if your considered top talent then you go to a top prep school (or play for a public school) and also choose to play for a top club team. Allowing a school like Shattuck to compete in Nationals, a boarding school that attracts all nearby talent because of a lack of competition with similar schools anywhere in the Midwest, is a serious advantage.

I think Nobles should have all their players sign up for hockey as an independent project during the spring term and then send their team to nationals. Or maybe a different prep team, because they’d have a throw down with Carl Grey about which roster a kid would end up on.

Actually that wouldn’t even be an issue since I would guess any kid would probably choose Assabet because no matter how dominating Nobles may be in the NEPSA, they still do not completely monopolize on regional talent because the League itself is so competitive. That’s what Assabet, a competitive youth organization does.

I completely agree with you... and you were better with the wording, thank you:p
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Youth hockey's the big leagues? If three prep schools are allowed in it, then why aren't the rest of them in it? The point of prep school is obviously to get more practice and improve on schools but shouldn't they want to compete with other schools that are doing the SAME? They are not youth hockey teams and therefore don't belong in a youth hockey tournament, they have their own things. I think that at this age, the kids that are going to college know it, so why not let some others be in on a shot at a big time championship? Do D3 teams say they're the best in the country when they win a National Championship? It's different levels.

I'm going to suggest that you step back from the keyboard and spend a few weeks reading past threads about the differences between D1 and D3 hockey. First of all, D1 hockey teams are allowed to pay the student's tuition, room and board, and books, should the school wish to pony up. There are several other academic rules that apply so it is far more than a different level, but a difference in qualifications.

With youth hockey, beyond the rules IceIsNice stated, districts and affiliates are allowed to define their own residency requirements (individual and team) beyond the USA Hockey limit on foreign players (yes, you can have Canadians on your team as long as their parents meet certain US Residency requirements - my daughter played on a team at Nationals with a Canadian).

Unfortunately for NAHA, the Vermont affiliate stubbornly defines residency rules differently from any other affiliate in the nation, depriving the other top teams the opportunity to play against all teams of their age qualifications for a true 19U National Championship.

Under USA Hockey rules a bunch of girls playing for any HS in the nation can register their team to compete in the Nationals if they so desire, practice 7 days a week, hire professional trainers and coaches, etc. They can (and do generally) register as High School teams in their own affiliate sponsored HS Leagues.

Technically, there is nothing against USA Hockey rules for any team made up of all girls to register as a "youth" team (i.e. boys) and play against the boys for their championship. And those who say that girls cannot compete at a national level with boys their same age above the bantam level haven't watched Ms Coyne or Ms Rigsby play.

This is a great country where people can organize together to achieve great things. Those who choose to define greatness by limiting achievement are doomed to achieve mediocrity.

Just because you seem to think we should have limit the competition at the top, doesn't mean the powers that be see it that way.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

I'm going to suggest that you step back from the keyboard and spend a few weeks reading past threads about the differences between D1 and D3 hockey. First of all, D1 hockey teams are allowed to pay the student's tuition, room and board, and books, should the school wish to pony up. There are several other academic rules that apply so it is far more than a different level, but a difference in qualifications.

Look at the NCAA, you have the ECAC, IVY League, CHA, Hockey East and WCHA for division 1. There clearly are advantages that exist in the different sub-Leagues, but the base of the matter is that they’re all schools.

There lacks this type of primitive definition when comparing youth hockey teams and schools like Shattuck and NAHA.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Technically, there is nothing against USA Hockey rules for any team made up of all girls to register as a "youth" team (i.e. boys) and play against the boys for their championship. And those who say that girls cannot compete at a national level with boys their same age above the bantam level haven't watched Ms Coyne or Ms Rigsby play.

Yes a team of those players could possibly compete with different boys youth teams, but that's tough to say past midgets. Take a team full of Meghan Agostas and a team full of Sidney Crosbys. Not really a match up anymore.

There are clearly issues that go past talent. I call them unfair advantages which seems to be the case with this subject from my perspective.
 
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Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Look at the NCAA, you have the ECAC, IVY League, CHA, Hockey East and WCHA for division 1. There clearly are advantages that exist in the different sub-Leagues, but the base of the matter is that they’re all schools.

There lacks this type of primitive definition when comparing youth hockey teams and schools like Shattuck and NAHA.

Yes, the NCAA (an association of COLLEGE athletic associations restricts teams to players attending a college) organizes teams in leagues (another function of the NCAA).

USA Hockey has no such restrictions on who may form and register Hockey Associations. It can be sponsored by an ice rink (many are), a non-profit parent association, or even a school. All associations are allowed to enter teams in play according to their composition with teams allowed to play any game they are qualified for.

The USA Hockey top tier National championship is only restricted on a national level by those qualifications IceIsNice (and I) listed.

With the NCAA, the "Division I" (as everyone calls it) National Championship is actually an "open" tournament IIRC where any team having played enough qualifying games against Division I opponents can qualify for. Yes, St. Anselm's or St. Mikes could schedule enough games against willing opponents and if ranked high enough could theoretically be invited to the big dance.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Brief aside, I have been told by an area USAH official that USAH is going to discontinue U12 Nationals. Anyone else hear this or similar?

To tie it to the conversation, I remember watching Miss Coyne many times as a U12.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

USA Hockey has no such restrictions on who may form and register Hockey Associations. It can be sponsored by an ice rink (many are), a non-profit parent association, or even a school. All associations are allowed to enter teams in play according to their composition with teams allowed to play any game they are qualified for.

Yeah so those are apparently the rules USA hockey currently follows. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be changed.

You can look at any youth sport. There are clear advantages that separate club teams and high school teams so they typically play in different leagues and go for different championships. This ambiguity between school and club doesn’t exist in any other youth sport that I’m aware of.
 
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Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Yeah so those are apparently the rules USA hockey currently follows. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be changed.
Then by all means go start a thread on what is wrong with USA Hockey. However this thread is about the best 19U teams in the country, whether they be club based or school based. Currently the rules allow this, therefore it is a very good subject for including the HS teams in the discussion.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Technically, there is nothing against USA Hockey rules for any team made up of all girls to register as a "youth" team (i.e. boys) and play against the boys for their championship. And those who say that girls cannot compete at a national level with boys their same age above the bantam level haven't watched Ms Coyne or Ms Rigsby play.
With the NCAA, the "Division I" (as everyone calls it) National Championship is actually an "open" tournament IIRC where any team having played enough qualifying games against Division I opponents can qualify for. Yes, St. Anselm's or St. Mikes could schedule enough games against willing opponents and if ranked high enough could theoretically be invited to the big dance.

Yeah theoretically both of these things could happen. But they’re not going to because there are clearly unfair advantages that exist. That’s why different leagues are even made, or else there would be no division 1 or division 2 or a men’s league and a women’s league.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Then by all means go start a thread on what is wrong with USA Hockey. However this thread is about the best 19U teams in the country, whether they be club based or school based. Currently the rules allow this, therefore it is a very good subject for including the HS teams in the discussion.

I’m not telling you to not talk about Shattuck or any other high school teams. People were already talking about the logistics of USA hockey and questioning the fairness of said processes before I butted in.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Brief aside, I have been told by an area USAH official that USAH is going to discontinue U12 Nationals. Anyone else hear this or similar?

To tie it to the conversation, I remember watching Miss Coyne many times as a U12.

Yeah, this is the last year. There is also discussion about eliminating the 14s as well.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Yeah theoretically both of these things could happen. But they’re not going to because there are clearly unfair advantages that exist. That’s why different leagues are even made, or else there would be no division 1 or division 2 or a men’s league and a women’s league.

And USA Hockey has stepped up to the plate and created a 2nd level Girls Nationals IIRC were the districts set stricter bounds on team compositions. There are also HS Leagues and the like under the auspicies of USA Hockey. However, we are talking here about the top level of competition in girls hockey for girls who have not started at college. Anyone who qualifies should be allowed to compete and by and large (with the notable exception of NAHA) they are allowed. That is what make the top level so great.

Let's refocus on the teams who compete day in and day out at this top level and not debate what the top level is.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Yeah, this is the last year. There is also discussion about eliminating the 14s as well.

One state is finding its way in transition from a couple of Girls AAA / Tier I programs (at U12-U19 levels) to over 30 programs of growing in size and talent at HS, plus before/after programs that will compete at Tier I. Hopefully there will be a new (and better) model very soon.

USAH may need to standardize things, but this combo of HS and club is the future (or the standard, depending where you reside). It works. Just MHO.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Yeah, this is the last year. There is also discussion about eliminating the 14s as well.
Wait.....this has been a hard day for me.....

No NAHA at Nationals despite NSA's inclusion
No whoopie pies allowed in Ridder
And no 12's after next year?

Grrrrrrr! Anyone else got any bad news to share?

Seriously, Hux, why?? If the Little Leagers can have their international tournament at the same age, why can't girls hockey? It's actually one of the more competitive divisions overall! And the girls at that age really get into it....all of it....dressing up for the parade, showing spirit during the skills, and they most certainly play their hearts out during the games themselves offering some of the most compelling competition, right up there with the older divisions! Another fricken dumb idea someone has......Geez....

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

The "Open" division void of SSM or NSA who are still allowed to compete in the Tier I division

This sounds like a lame effort at a compromise. The Open Division sure seems pretty much closed. With SSM and now NSA both in, why couldn't NAHA get a better deal? No Comprendo :confused:

This wasn't intended to be a compromise. The intent was to have full season and academy teams compete in a separate division. Of course this raised hackles since it was felt this would then relegate the split season teams to a lower level, or that was the objection that I heard.

Somewhere along the line it was decided to make it a high school/Prep school/Academy championship and there were a substantial number of entries. However, no high school teams wanted to compete, and many of the Preps had players who also played on club teams and the tourney was at the same time as States. Players were prohibited by their club teams from playing for their Prep team, resulting in roster issues and the Preps pulled out.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

If the team can be made up of unique players not on any other national bound roster, why isn't that sufficient? who cares where they came from or how often they practiced or played together, it should be about giving the best teams at a given age level the chance to compete for the title of USA Champion.

I better understand what it is they tried to do, but I don't agree with it. It's tier 1. It's supposed to include the best teams and the best players.
 
Re: 2009-2010 Top U19 Teams

Wait.....this has been a hard day for me.....

No NAHA at Nationals despite NSA's inclusion
No whoopie pies allowed in Ridder
And no 12's after next year?

Grrrrrrr! Anyone else got any bad news to share?

Seriously, Hux, why?? :

Woah! Hold on a minute.....what's the story there Wishbone?

Actually that sounds like a really fun and exciting challenge....selling contraband whoopie pies.
Reminds me of the really old commercial with the guy in a trenchcoat with a lot of secret inside pockets: pssst! wanna buy a ______?
 
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