Wisconsin vs Total Recall

[MUnRPI]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Similar problems in Ohio. In my hometown, every fall when levy is close to failing school board officials threaten to cut sports and other extra-circulars for the entire district. There is definitely a growing tension between state employees and everyone else.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Glib and overstated as usual.

Are you coming on to me?

Is it possible black kids got better educations in segregated schools than they do now? If so, what would account for that?

It actually is possible. Partly it's simply a matter of discipline in the schools, which were much safer environments to learn in (well, safer from students -- I'm sure the occasional psychotic gym coach was unpleasant). Partly clashing cultures is "distracting" in various ways. The school I went to was about a one third split between white, black and Hispanic. By the third day all the lunch tables were self-segregated and God help you if you were caught on a racial odd-man rush walking home. The cliques that formed in segregated schools were probably just as exclusive, but they lacked the overarching racial narrative that even parents participate in.

None of which argues we should segregate schools again -- if we ever get to that point we should just give up on the whole American experiment. But it does mean we should always be working to bust up the idiot narratives that reinforce that behavior. It can be done -- a hundred years ago Italians and Irish kids were at each other's throats just as badly, and now nobody cares this side of Southie and a few other armpits.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Parental involvement and two-parent families.

Birth rates to single mothers are disturbingly high, something like 40% of all births are to a single parent. Children from single-parent families have higher absentee rates and a raft of similar problems.

There's a problem with this theory, though, and that's that there generally were not two functioning parents in poor and lower middle class homes even back in those hazy nostalgic days of straw hats and family values. For one thing, lots of parents just didn't live to see their kids' 18th birthday. And for that matter, parental absenteeism, de facto divorce (abandonment), and drunkenness in the home were all sky high among urban populations even back then (as was teen pregnancy -- nothing ever changes). Superimposing the Brady Bunch image on the families of bygone days is very misleading. There were few families like that prior to WW2 outside of the upper middle class, and before unions the upper middle class was a very small slice. Almost every mother worked -- they might not have worked at a factory in the next town, but they worked doing cleaning, or clothes manufacture, or a hundred other off-the-books tasks that took them away from their kids. And a lot of the fathers were AWOL.

What those families did have that we've lost is multiple generations living under the same roof. The old and the infirm did most of the care-giving. The typical NYC Jew success story from the 20's starts with "my grandparent would whip me if I didn't bring home good grades..." At they had the double-edged sword of gossip. You knew that if a neighbor saw you on the street corner during school hours you were as dead to rights as if your own mother had caught you. The car destroyed all that, because it gave us distance, anonymity, and privacy, and nobody wants to give that up, but it also means we must find other means of keeping our little Huck Finns in line.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Are you coming on to me?



It actually is possible. Partly it's simply a matter of discipline in the schools, which were much safer environments to learn in (well, safer from students -- I'm sure the occasional psychotic gym coach was unpleasant). Partly clashing cultures is "distracting" in various ways. The school I went to was about a one third split between white, black and Hispanic. By the third day all the lunch tables were self-segregated and God help you if you were caught on a racial odd-man rush walking home. The cliques that formed in segregated schools were probably just as exclusive, but they lacked the overarching racial narrative that even parents participate in.

None of which argues we should segregate schools again -- if we ever get to that point we should just give up on the whole American experiment. But it does mean we should always be working to bust up the idiot narratives that reinforce that behavior. It can be done -- a hundred years ago Italians and Irish kids were at each other's throats just as badly, and now nobody cares this side of Southie and a few other armpits.

Parents, especially black parents, in those days were more invested in seeing to it their kids went to school and worked hard at it. There are lots of social pathologies out there but the lack of in tact homes and parental involvement (especially from fathers) is significant. Bill Cosby was pilloried by Professor West and other excuse makers for pointing this obvious fact out.

Think back to Amos and Andy. Condemned as racist (but not Sanford and Son for some odd reason) but was it really? Yes, in the foreground there were the comic characters.* But apart from them, virtually every person who appeared on screen was either a small businessman or a professional. Well dressed, hard working, articulate, law abiding, concerned about their community. One of the comic characters, Lightning, was an idiot. And that was displayed by the cockeyed way he wore his hat. Now, that's a fashion statement. Some folks call students who want to do well "oreos." Thousands of people are working like mules to fight these problems. And we've spent trillions of dollars trying to ameliorate them. Yet there seem to be two trajectories for blacks: those who are (and have) moved into the middle class and are succeeding at an ever increasing rate. And those who aren't. If we were to flatten all of those underperforming inner city schools, build new ones, and insist they be manned by our best teachers, would things improve dramatically? I'm not convinced. Because the world outside those schools would be unchanged.

I've posted before about a Joe Clark appearance with Phil Donahue. All Donahue was concerned about was the handful of 22 year old "sophomore" drug dealers Clark had expelled, and what was going to happen to them. Clark patiently mentioned some options, GED, night school, military, etc. But Donahue persisted. Finally, Clark said, in essence "I don't give a rip about those punks. I've got 1800 kids to worry about and they deserve my full attention. Not some drug dealing 22-year old punks. 1800 vs. 25? Not a tough call. Except for you, Phil."

*Kingfish' mother in law was played by Amanda Randolph. And in one unforgettable exchange she informed her son in law that the world wasn't big enough for the both of them. "And we's gonna miss you, baldy."

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

There's a problem with this theory, though, and that's that there generally were not two functioning parents in poor and lower middle class homes even back in those hazy nostalgic days of straw hats and family values. For one thing, lots of parents just didn't live to see their kids' 18th birthday. And for that matter, parental absenteeism, de facto divorce (abandonment), and drunkenness in the home were all sky high among urban populations even back then (as was teen pregnancy -- nothing ever changes). Superimposing the Brady Bunch image on the families of bygone days is very misleading. There were few families like that prior to WW2 outside of the upper middle class, and before unions the upper middle class was a very small slice. Almost every mother worked -- they might not have worked at a factory in the next town, but they worked doing cleaning, or clothes manufacture, or a hundred other off-the-books tasks that took them away from their kids. And a lot of the fathers were AWOL.

What those families did have that we've lost is multiple generations living under the same roof. The old and the infirm did most of the care-giving. The typical NYC Jew success story from the 20's starts with "my grandparent would whip me if I didn't bring home good grades..." At they had the double-edged sword of gossip. You knew that if a neighbor saw you on the street corner during school hours you were as dead to rights as if your own mother had caught you. The car destroyed all that, because it gave us distance, anonymity, and privacy, and nobody wants to give that up, but it also means we must find other means of keeping our little Huck Finns in line.

Are you arguing that single parent homes, with only a very young mother, are a good thing (or at least not a bad thing)? Or that these homes are not a major part of our problem?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Are you arguing that single parent homes, with only a very young mother, are a good thing (or at least not a bad thing)? Or that these homes are not a major part of our problem?

I highly doubt it. It sounds like he pretty much agrees, actually, and is merely substituting one term for another: "parental involvement" is substituted by "family involvement" and "two-parent family" is substituted by "stable and supportive family environment."

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I highly doubt it. He's probably just reminding us that he's much smarter than we are, and more compassionate and caring to boot.

These big social problems are like the Gordian Knot. Where's my sword?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Are you arguing that single parent homes, with only a very young mother, are a good thing (or at least not a bad thing)? Or that these homes are not a major part of our problem?

It's such a stereotype, but true in my experience. In the 80's Houston saw a huge influx of Vietnamese. Lots of 'em wound up fishing in the gulf. And others took jobs in convenience stores. You'd go in there to buy your Super Slurpee and there would be mom and dad, grand parents, and young kids doing their homework. Now, I suspect those young kids are professionals. During a SOTU speech once, Reagan pointed out a young lady in the gallery. She had fled Vietnam, spoke not a word of English, and had just graduated as valedictorian of her class at West Point.

Also, from professional experience, I have had numerous encounters with with so-called "black spokesmen" (whom Godfrey Cambridge once defined as dudes with new suits and a hundred dollars in their pockets) expressing the most frightful racism against the South Asians. As if they had cut in line to experience the American dream. "What about us?" "Why are THEY being allowed to move up?" Etc.

 

[MountieBoyOz]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We are three pages in and no one has come up with this yet.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-rziE39JWfs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

You are losing it people.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

Bill Cosby was pilloried by Professor West and other excuse makers for pointing this obvious fact out.

I have always been side by side with The Cos in that. Parents have to, at minimum, set a good example with their own lives. Next, they really ought to take a very close interest in every part of the child's life, including education. This is tricky because the two most common models of fathering, "Ship Captain" and "Side Kick," both suck for getting your kids to want to be frank with you. One of the most unexpected discoveries I made as a parent was even in the midst of my teens' fullscale snitstorm back-talking eye-rolling adolescence, as long as I was firm ("we're not going anywhere until we discuss this and I have the Doritos") and consistent in my response, it helped them with their problems because now they knew what was expected (I also snuck a few why you do this's in there on the off-chance that they registered subconsciously and would sprout sometime in their late 20's).

Even at their most insufferable they are still primarily responding out of anxiety and they do need and use your help. It's just that in those moments you have to consider them halfway between children and terrified wildcats and watch out for those claws, they can hurt.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

We are three pages in and no one has come up with this yet.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/-rziE39JWfs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Great link.


Now, is the state divorcing itself from too much influence by too few people, or is the state divorcing itself from the person trying to rescue them?

 

[Handyman]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I have always been side by side with The Cos in that. Parents have to, at minimum, set a good example with their own lives. Next, they really ought to take a very close interest in every part of the child's life, including education. This is tricky because the two most common models of fathering, "Ship Captain" and "Side Kick," both suck for getting your kids to want to be frank with you. One of the most unexpected discoveries I made as a parent was even in the midst of my teens' fullscale snitstorm back-talking eye-rolling adolescence, as long as I was firm "we're not going anywhere until we discuss this and I have the Doritos") and consistent in my response, it helped them with their problems because now they knew what was expected (I also snuck a few why's in there on the off-chance that they registered subconsciously and would spout sometime in their late 20's).

Even at their most insufferable they are still primarily responding out of anxiety and they do need and use your help. It's just that in those moments you have to consider them halfway between children and terrified wildcats and watch out for those claws, they can hurt.

The teacher I worked with during my student teaching stint always said this "The reason kids dont care and have no respect for teachers/school/authority is because they are raised by parents who feel the same way." That is the difference between the generations...my father held school and teachers in the highest regard. They could call and tell him I was making a thermonuclear bomb in shop class and he would kick my *** for it. No excuses, no reprieves...I was wrong and they were right. These days that is a minority opinion...give a kid a C and see what these helicopter parents do to you. Tell them their kid is ditching class and watch them roll their eyes because they hated school and ditched too and see no issue with it. These parents loathed school and the teachers within it so they feel justified in their kids feeling the same way.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

A followup on the earlier sidebar about what happened to a once-vibrant system of public education that has become increasingly disfunctional in cities across the country.

Some had suggested that a large part of what made these schools effective in earlier times was that the primary function of teachers was teaching.

Here is a startling Department of Education internal document leaked to the NY Post today:

Nearly one in four [New York] city public-school teachers whose schedules were audited by the Department of Education last year weren’t teaching the minimum number of classes their contracts require,

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/teachers_work_shirk_1ngGwkRJLkEsvqbbxFS2DL#ixzz1trFoQ69v

This news is topical in this thread because it is representative of the disproportionate amount of power held by public sector unions that they can so nonchalantly engage in such blatant widespread rule-breaking yet face no consequences whatsoever.

The fact that national unions wanted to make an example of Gov Walker seems to have awakened one of those "countervailing powers" that JK Galbraith wrote about years ago; people nationwide who are struggling are becoming increasingly impatient with this kind of arrogance and want to remind these job-flouters that at one time part of the job description included "public servant" not public master.

My own view is a bit more balanced; I do realize that at one time the unions did serve an important function, which has now become well-established. I am much more upset with the politiciants for caving left and right, and with the voters who keep putting these politicians into office.

I remember reading that at a public sector union rally, Jon Corzine made a speech in which he repeatedly used the word "we" when addressing them, except that he also was governor of NJ at the time and was supposedly involved with contract negotiations representing the state on the other side of the table from the union...and he was sleeping with the union rep at the time as well! Christie succeeded him in office, that was too much even for NJ.

Management also enables this behavior; they know who the troublemakers are yet they refuse to discipline them, and when contracts come up from renewal they do not insist that some kind of performance accountability be included.

That being said, I cannot say I disagree with people who are angry at the unions too, the leaders who want to maximize dues revenues first and foremost, even if that is not in the best interest of union members, and that relatively small percentage of union members themselves that are so callous to any calls of responsibility (Pareto's law, 20% of union members are 80% of the union problem).

I also can understand why many people in Wisconsin would be resentful of people from outside the state sending in so many campaign contributions. The unions wanted to "send a message" and suddenly people realized that if they could absorb that punch and send a counter-punch back the other way, it might give people hope everywhere.

For those of you who live in a rural area or outside the Northeast, Illinois, and California, you might have no clue how widespread and how deep-rooted this normally inarticulate frustration is for ordinary people just trying to make it through the day, to watch someone idling around getting pay and benefits for not performing any useful work. In some small vicarious way, now they have a smidgen of a voice.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I see Illinois has joined the "Axis of Evil" for the duration of Obama. That's cute.

There are lots of lazy people in flyover country and lots of hardworking people on the coasts. In my experience what the salt of the earth rural southern folks have in mind when they think about lazy people is their no good brother-in-law Cletus, not some metrosexual welfare queen, despite FNC's best efforts to turn their anger into partisan political capital.

This is (yet another) one of those things when people "just don't get it" when they view it through their particular politically-obsessed lens. It has nothing to do with politics or parties.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

some metrosexual welfare queen.

We are not at all talking about the same thing here; welfare queens don't get taxpayer funded pensions for life.

I am around enough union people all day every day to notice that the vast majority do their jobs diligently and well, and I also see non-trivial amounts of astonishing abuse, letter carriers drinking in bars at 2 PM every day (I assume that's what they are doing there when their trucks are parked outside for 2 hours!), train engineers sitting in a diner while a platform full of passengers wonders why their train is running late again....a relatively few people abusing the system in a very great way indeed.

It's not surprising that these people try to get away with it; that's human nature. What is enraging to many is that these people have been identified and exposed, yet suffer no adverse consequences anyway.

Are you seriously trying to defend them?

There is a huge difference in my book between laziness and fraud. If you are paid a salary and do not work, that fits the statutory description of fraud, does it not?

If you are lazy and collecting welfare, that is not fraud, just a flawed social program that started out with good intentions and too much naivete. Two very different things entirely.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I am around enough union people all day every day to notice that the vast majority do their jobs diligently and well, and I also see non-trivial amounts of astonishing abuse, letter carriers drinking in bars at 2 PM every day (I assume that's what they are doing there when their trucks are parked outside for 2 hours!), train engineers sitting in a diner while a platform full of passengers wonders why their train is running late again....a relatively few people abusing the system in a very great way indeed.

You're right that we are talking about different things. You introduced region so I assumed (I think, naturally) that you were merely repeating the usual "real America vs the decadent NY-Hollywood axis" trope. It appears you were talking about abuse of privileges in unions (which in retrospect is what the thread is about, so, OK, my bad).

I could be wrong, but I don't get the impression that this is really a hot button issue anymore. It was in 1959 when "I'm Alright Jack" was about exactly what you're talking about (aside: highly recommended Brit Com which you will love both artistically and ideologically). I think for the most part people have really moved on, which is why when the whole Walker comic opera happened the general public response was in favor of the unions (insofar as anybody outside WI cared at all).

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

I think for the most part people have really moved on, which is why when the whole Walker comic opera happened the general public response was in favor of the unions (insofar as anybody outside WI cared at all).

At the beginning, the public response in WI was that way as well. Question 12: 57-37 in favor of collective bargaining for public employees.
Now, voters favor limiting it for public employees 49-45. (Q34).

Almost regardless of the outcome in June, the unions have lost. The election is going to be fought over the traditional Dem/Rep issues - taxes, spending, abortion, etc. Even the spokesman of the Wis Dems says "Collective bargaining is not moving people."

But let's not make the mistake, as a whole bunch of folks on the left have, of thinking the only people having a re-think on PEUs are GOP governors. Far from it. Rahm Emanuel, (D) Mayor of Chicago. Pat Quinn, (D) Governor of Illinois. Dan Malloy, (D) Gov. Connecticut. Jerry Brown (D), California. The list goes on and on.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

But let's not make the mistake, as a whole bunch of folks on the left have, of thinking the only people having a re-think on PEUs are GOP governors. Far from it. Rahm Emanuel, (D) Mayor of Chicago. Pat Quinn, (D) Governor of Illinois. Dan Malloy, (D) Gov. Connecticut. Jerry Brown (D), California. The list goes on and on.

Just as "only Nixon could go to China," it appears only Dems can rein in public unions. The Dem Treasurer in RI has done quite a job (they had a city, Central Falls, go into bankruptcy because it could not afford retiree pensions); and Andrew Cuomo in NY has also talked about taking on the teachers especially in regards to evaluations.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

On primary day, thank Aqua Buddha for Mike Tate.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall

On primary day, thank Aqua Buddha for Mike Tate.

Kind of ironic, the more elitist a person is in their sensibilities, the more they seem to pretend to speak for "the people"