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Wisconsin vs Total Recall
- Thread starter FreshFish
- Start date
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Timothy A
Let's go RED!
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
The health insurance deal prior to Walker stepping in was a joke. The WI Teachers Union set up their own health insurance company for the school districts to buy insurance from, and they HAD to buy from them. Anyone guess how reasonable those rates were from the union's company? Talk about fleecing the taxpayers.
Unions drive up public building costs, at least in WI. WI has prevailing wage laws that say if you are going to build a new public building, you have to pay your employees X dollars per hour. I work for a commercial window company. When I bid a public job, I have to increase the labor rate of the installers by 25% to meet the set prevailing wage, and our guys are not poorly paid. This is all set up to force non-union companies to pay union level wages, otherwise union companies would get undercut everytime on the bids. So public building projects have a 25% labor higher labor cost than if I built the same building with my own money. Nice use of taxpayer money.
My company was the lower bidder on 2 Walgreens in N IL. We had done 6 Walgreens with this general contractor, and were just continuing our relationship and aggressive bidding. Well, N IL is a heavy union area, and the G/C was pretty much coerced into cancelling our contract due to union pressure and they gave the jobs to union companies, and yes the G/C had to pay more for the work.
My mom worked for a union factory for years. Her union bosses constantly told her to slow down because she was working too fast and making others look bad. They also projected the slow-pokes who dragged down productivity from getting fired.
Unions, what are they good for.... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING UGH!
The health insurance deal prior to Walker stepping in was a joke. The WI Teachers Union set up their own health insurance company for the school districts to buy insurance from, and they HAD to buy from them. Anyone guess how reasonable those rates were from the union's company? Talk about fleecing the taxpayers.
Unions drive up public building costs, at least in WI. WI has prevailing wage laws that say if you are going to build a new public building, you have to pay your employees X dollars per hour. I work for a commercial window company. When I bid a public job, I have to increase the labor rate of the installers by 25% to meet the set prevailing wage, and our guys are not poorly paid. This is all set up to force non-union companies to pay union level wages, otherwise union companies would get undercut everytime on the bids. So public building projects have a 25% labor higher labor cost than if I built the same building with my own money. Nice use of taxpayer money.
My company was the lower bidder on 2 Walgreens in N IL. We had done 6 Walgreens with this general contractor, and were just continuing our relationship and aggressive bidding. Well, N IL is a heavy union area, and the G/C was pretty much coerced into cancelling our contract due to union pressure and they gave the jobs to union companies, and yes the G/C had to pay more for the work.
My mom worked for a union factory for years. Her union bosses constantly told her to slow down because she was working too fast and making others look bad. They also projected the slow-pokes who dragged down productivity from getting fired.
Unions, what are they good for.... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING UGH!
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
A book? Given recent revelations, I would have thought she'd make her views known via smoke signal.
At any rate, voucher schools are obviously not a panacea. But who's claiming them to be?
2 out 3 black males who enter a Milwaukee high school won't graduate. For other races, it isn't much better. Studies seem to indicate that vouchers can help, at least on that front.
For someone who constantly *****es about schools, education, etc., you sure don't seem to ever have any solutions. Except, of course, more *****ing.
A book? Given recent revelations, I would have thought she'd make her views known via smoke signal.
At any rate, voucher schools are obviously not a panacea. But who's claiming them to be?
2 out 3 black males who enter a Milwaukee high school won't graduate. For other races, it isn't much better. Studies seem to indicate that vouchers can help, at least on that front.
For someone who constantly *****es about schools, education, etc., you sure don't seem to ever have any solutions. Except, of course, more *****ing.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Rim shot (actually, very nice).
My wife loves that book. Warren makes some very good arguments, but her style is so New Yorker I want to hurt her.
A book? Given recent revelations, I would have thought she'd make her views known via smoke signal.
Rim shot (actually, very nice).
My wife loves that book. Warren makes some very good arguments, but her style is so New Yorker I want to hurt her.
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
That is Scooby on EVERY front. It is all he does. Talk about a PMSing *****, he is the walking, posting definition of one.
That is Scooby on EVERY front. It is all he does. Talk about a PMSing *****, he is the walking, posting definition of one.
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
This is simply a lie. The front page of today's Wisconsin State Journal shows that only 33% are under $100, let alone under $50. 75% my arse.
This is simply a lie. The front page of today's Wisconsin State Journal shows that only 33% are under $100, let alone under $50. 75% my arse.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
LOL, right.
I posted a well researched book that happens to be written in part by Elizabeth Warren. The book has many solutions to the school problem in it and I support every single one of them.
I don't support vouchers. Never have, never will.
All anyone hears is what I don't support. They never hear what I do.
LOL, right.
I posted a well researched book that happens to be written in part by Elizabeth Warren. The book has many solutions to the school problem in it and I support every single one of them.
I don't support vouchers. Never have, never will.
All anyone hears is what I don't support. They never hear what I do.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Well, it's good to know you are so open minded. As for the book, I found this interview with a co-author.
I actually agree with a ton of that. She seems to foreclose on private schools as an option, but whatever, I think the point about zip codes is spot on. Glad to see you do too.
Well, it's good to know you are so open minded. As for the book, I found this interview with a co-author.
I actually agree with a ton of that. She seems to foreclose on private schools as an option, but whatever, I think the point about zip codes is spot on. Glad to see you do too.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
School choice and vouchers are two completely different things. We have school choice already in my community and I have no problem with it.
School choice and vouchers are two completely different things. We have school choice already in my community and I have no problem with it.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Yes, I understand that they are different. I was just happy to hear that, at the least, you support school choice.
Yes, I understand that they are different. I was just happy to hear that, at the least, you support school choice.
ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Realize however that being a parent and having lived (continuing) with the expense of children I can tell you that school choice isn't a panacea. Transportation costs and time weigh heavily on any family and every minute is precious. Spending an extra hour a day on a bus would be a burden to my kids and to me and affect the choices they have outside the classroom. Thus a good neighborhood school is very important to everyone.
Also, decoupling schools from where you live decreases the concept of community. Something that has been lost in our society and I would think to our detriment going forward.
Realize however that being a parent and having lived (continuing) with the expense of children I can tell you that school choice isn't a panacea. Transportation costs and time weigh heavily on any family and every minute is precious. Spending an extra hour a day on a bus would be a burden to my kids and to me and affect the choices they have outside the classroom. Thus a good neighborhood school is very important to everyone.
Also, decoupling schools from where you live decreases the concept of community. Something that has been lost in our society and I would think to our detriment going forward.
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Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Agree, the challenge is finding ways to incent all schools to be more attractive to families. The idea of vouchers in some circles is merely a vehicle by which school choice is implemented (suppose all public schools charged the same tuition and vouchers were only good at public schools; then vouchers are merely how you pick the school of your choice). The beauty of this system is that it makes tangible the value of the education to all parties involved. Now the principles and teachers have a way to discern how much their efforts are valued; it gives them an incentive to make their school more preferable.
People need incentives to improve.
Ideally, all neighborhood schools would improve to the point that, except for specialized programs, people in each neighborhood would actually want their children to go to the neighborhood school rather than be forced to go to the neighborhood school. We need some kind of transitional mechanism as the status quo is totally unacceptable.
Agree, the challenge is finding ways to incent all schools to be more attractive to families. The idea of vouchers in some circles is merely a vehicle by which school choice is implemented (suppose all public schools charged the same tuition and vouchers were only good at public schools; then vouchers are merely how you pick the school of your choice). The beauty of this system is that it makes tangible the value of the education to all parties involved. Now the principles and teachers have a way to discern how much their efforts are valued; it gives them an incentive to make their school more preferable.
People need incentives to improve.
Ideally, all neighborhood schools would improve to the point that, except for specialized programs, people in each neighborhood would actually want their children to go to the neighborhood school rather than be forced to go to the neighborhood school. We need some kind of transitional mechanism as the status quo is totally unacceptable.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Meanwhile, Walker's practice of case-by-case tax credit handouts is just as fishy to me as Jim Doyle's no-bid government contracts.
Why is it that politicians prefer to do stuff like that instead of, you know... making broad-based actions regarding how business are taxed (especially small businesses) instead of giving handouts? Just kidding, we all know the answer to that... just look at how campaigns get financed...
Meanwhile, Walker's practice of case-by-case tax credit handouts is just as fishy to me as Jim Doyle's no-bid government contracts.
Why is it that politicians prefer to do stuff like that instead of, you know... making broad-based actions regarding how business are taxed (especially small businesses) instead of giving handouts? Just kidding, we all know the answer to that... just look at how campaigns get financed...
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
The solution is not to turn everything into some silly analog to a 'for profit' business -- all that will do is make the situation even worse for the lowest income students and lowest income neighborhood schools. The real solution (which is politically impossible) is to move the granularity of school funding from neighborhoods to states, or even the nation. Since that's impossible, the next best solution is some sort of genuine quality standards for schools, not the NCLB scam.
Or we could go back to the 19th century when everybody poor dropped out of the system by the time they were 15 to become farmers, ditch diggers, or cannon fodder. Mitt Romney needs landscapers.
And yet it was acceptable, for decades, when we had the best public school system in the world. We even had great urban schools, serving populations of poor kids coming from families with no history of educational attainment.
The solution is not to turn everything into some silly analog to a 'for profit' business -- all that will do is make the situation even worse for the lowest income students and lowest income neighborhood schools. The real solution (which is politically impossible) is to move the granularity of school funding from neighborhoods to states, or even the nation. Since that's impossible, the next best solution is some sort of genuine quality standards for schools, not the NCLB scam.
Or we could go back to the 19th century when everybody poor dropped out of the system by the time they were 15 to become farmers, ditch diggers, or cannon fodder. Mitt Romney needs landscapers.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Well, that would certainly help balance the "everyone thinks they're too good to take crappy jobs, so there's plenty of opportunity for desperate immigrants" equation.
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Agree, that is generally why I suggest that we need to find some way for people to set concrete goals and evaluate their progress toward those goals. It doesn't have to be "for profit' and it also is absolutely essential we have reliable metrics and ways to provide incentives for people to improve.
Far easier to criticize than to propose something constructive, eh?
We had great urban schools when the first priority of teachers was to teach. Those priorities changed, in some cases quite drastically. We see the results. Objectives and incentives matter a very great deal.
Agree, that is generally why I suggest that we need to find some way for people to set concrete goals and evaluate their progress toward those goals. It doesn't have to be "for profit' and it also is absolutely essential we have reliable metrics and ways to provide incentives for people to improve.
Far easier to criticize than to propose something constructive, eh?
We had great urban schools when the first priority of teachers was to teach. Those priorities changed, in some cases quite drastically. We see the results. Objectives and incentives matter a very great deal.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
I actually think the biggest difference is we don't just throw people away today. Imagine a school system where everybody in the bottom half of the class each year after 9th grade was cut. That would be a pretty impressive, motivated, intelligent group. And that's what we were doing in the 1880's and the 1920's. After WW2 when the Word Came Down that we needed scientists, not factory workers, there was a huge drive to keep everybody we possibly could in the system. Schools were still pretty good because at least little Erika didn't have to rub shoulders with The Element, but then 1954 rolled around. So white parents took their kids and their tax dollars and packed off to Greenwich, the urban schools collapsed, the white suburban schools excelled, and everybody who mattered was happy again. And then the 70's rolled around and suburbanites were shocked, shocked to discover that the urban schools and neighborhoods they'd abandoned were hell-holes, and it would cost (gulp!) MONEY to improve them.
To solve the problem we need two course corrections, neither of which is allowed to happen. Urban parents have to stop raising their children as animals, but you can't say that cuz
and urban schools need comparable funding to suburban schools, but you can't say that cuz
Both sides would rather suck their thumbs and believe their fantasies than swallow hard and accept that one of their core ideas is nonsense. And so... no change.
I actually think the biggest difference is we don't just throw people away today. Imagine a school system where everybody in the bottom half of the class each year after 9th grade was cut. That would be a pretty impressive, motivated, intelligent group. And that's what we were doing in the 1880's and the 1920's. After WW2 when the Word Came Down that we needed scientists, not factory workers, there was a huge drive to keep everybody we possibly could in the system. Schools were still pretty good because at least little Erika didn't have to rub shoulders with The Element, but then 1954 rolled around. So white parents took their kids and their tax dollars and packed off to Greenwich, the urban schools collapsed, the white suburban schools excelled, and everybody who mattered was happy again. And then the 70's rolled around and suburbanites were shocked, shocked to discover that the urban schools and neighborhoods they'd abandoned were hell-holes, and it would cost (gulp!) MONEY to improve them.
To solve the problem we need two course corrections, neither of which is allowed to happen. Urban parents have to stop raising their children as animals, but you can't say that cuz
and urban schools need comparable funding to suburban schools, but you can't say that cuz
Both sides would rather suck their thumbs and believe their fantasies than swallow hard and accept that one of their core ideas is nonsense. And so... no change.
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Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Glib and overstated as usual. But still confusing correlation with causation when it comes to school spending and achievement. Is it possible black kids got better educations in segregated schools than they do now? If so, what would account for that? Remember the federal judge who took over the KC school system and ordered very expensive "improvements" to heavily minority schools (green houses, natatoriums and other "essentials.") And what happend to achievement scores in those schools? Nothing.
I actually think the biggest difference is we don't just throw people away today. Imagine a school system where everybody in the bottom half of the class each year after 9th grade was cut. That would be a pretty impressive, motivated, intelligent group. And that's what we were doing in the 1880's and the 1920's. After WW2 when the Word Came Down that we needed scientists, not factory workers, there was a huge drive to keep everybody we possibly could in the system. Schools were still pretty good because at least little Erika didn't have to rub shoulders with The Element, but then 1954 rolled around. So white parents took their kids and their tax dollars and packed off to Greenwich, the urban schools collapsed, the white suburban schools excelled, and everybody who mattered was happy again. And then the 70's rolled around and suburbanites were shocked, shocked to discover that the urban schools and neighborhoods they'd abandoned were hell-holes, and it would cost (gulp!) MONEY to improve them.
To solve the problem we need two course corrections, neither of which is allowed to happen. Urban parents have to stop raising their children as animals, but you can't say that cuz
and urban schools need comparable funding to suburban schools, but you can't say that cuz
Both sides would rather suck their thumbs and believe their fantasies than swallow hard and accept that one of their core ideas is nonsense. And so... no change.
Glib and overstated as usual. But still confusing correlation with causation when it comes to school spending and achievement. Is it possible black kids got better educations in segregated schools than they do now? If so, what would account for that? Remember the federal judge who took over the KC school system and ordered very expensive "improvements" to heavily minority schools (green houses, natatoriums and other "essentials.") And what happend to achievement scores in those schools? Nothing.
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Re: Wisconsin vs Total Recall
Parental involvement and two-parent families.
Birth rates to single mothers are disturbingly high, something like 40% of all births are to a single parent. Children from single-parent families have higher absentee rates and a raft of similar problems.
Parental involvement and two-parent families.
Birth rates to single mothers are disturbingly high, something like 40% of all births are to a single parent. Children from single-parent families have higher absentee rates and a raft of similar problems.