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WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

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Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Bah. If that Johnson kid would have just developed like Eaves and those other guys and just put up 150 pts his Junior year, we'd have that 7th banner already hanging. :p

So, anyway, several weeks ago I was listening to Chuck's podcast as he described AA's difficulties in recruiting/retaining high end talent, leading them to play a system which relies on strong goal tending and a heavily defense oriented strategy to keep games close and give them a chance late against obviously more talented teams. Chuck touted this 'formula for success' for AA's situation as the best way for them to play in the WCHA. I totally agree with his assessment.

Later in the same podcast, (though I'm sure not making a conscience comparison at all) when talk turned to the Badgers, Chuck accurately described Bucky's 'formula for success': Strong goal tending, defense first, keep it close, and so on. All the same words and phrases he used to describe AA. Again a very good assessment, but it struck me--Why in the world does Wisconsin have the same 'formula for success' that perrennial WCHA bottom dweller AA has?
I have no idea, but it is the case. I guess I generally agree with Almington: It's the sytem that is frustrating fans and the scoreboard. As fans, when it works we're satisfied because a 1-0 win trumps a 6-5 loss every time. But when it doesn't, we're doubly unhappy because losing 2-0 and 3-1 a lot just sucks to watch.

"Wisko you moron, you've been huffing Zamboni fumes again haven't you? It's not the system at all, it's that we don't have enough studs up front!"

Yes, I have, and no, it's not. Actually, I believe it's that we don't have the studly offensive defensemen. The Eaves system starts with defense. What it relies on is NHL caliber defensemen to start the offense, make the passes, jump into the high slot, and anchor the powerplay. When it's really clicking, the system can turn the puck over and lead the nation in scoring-- even take you to the NC game. But not without super-studs on the blue line.

Adding two high flying forwards to this team would make it better of course, but would it be a top five team? I don't believe so. Because the system is not designed to work that way and unless Eaves changed things up (which he has not shown to be very willing to be flexible) those high flyer's impact would be muted by the style of play. Instead, add a couple of all star D-men to the mix. With the goaltending and guys we already have up front... The way the system works it just might make this team a contender. (Albeit one that is going to need to win 2-1 and 3-2 a lot, but that is exactly what it's supposed to do.)

So what am I saying? Just that all this longing for another Heatley, a Reinprecht, a Shuchuk, a Granato, a Lecy, a Johnson, or dare we hope-- a second coming of Bert Dehate? (Don't look at me like that. Yes, I said Bert Dehate. 47 goals - 31 games played in '67-'68.) All this longing for big time scorers is wasted breath, because as long as Eaves is in charge, what we need to pray for is more Justin Schultz, Jamie Mcbain, Craig Anderson, Brian Rafalski, Barry Richter, Theran Walsh, and Chris Chelios. Give him three Craig Norwich's and three Gary Suter's and Eaves' system (although kind of boring) is going to win a lot of games. But barring that, it's going play a lot like a better staffed AA and it's not going to be all that fun to watch.

Last year UW didn't have a stud offensive Dman on the team: 2006-07 which is what this season feels very similar to where you have a very sold D, top quality goaltending, experience and (on paper at least) talent at forward and yet, the team just doesn't seem to be able to leverage those advantage into wins because they are just not scoring enough goals on a consistent enough basis because it's not getting the offensive nudge that it needs from the D.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I see some merit in your analysis. If true, do you think it's easier to find these defensemen with the described characteristics, or forwards? I would contend that such a defenseman is much more rare, and thus it's not wise to predicate your success on a system which relies on acquiring such defensive talent year after year.

Exactly. With such a premium on them at the next levels, not a ton of high class blueliners play college hockey do they? But I do believe it's what it takes for the Eaves system to really work year in and year out.

markwojo said:
So when we won a title in '06 and were an utterly dominating squad (other then a little hiccup around Elliott getting nicked up), who were these multiple stud Dmen that were driving Eaves system? Other then Gilbert, there isn't anyone that even remotely resembles a stud NHL caliber dman (unless you consider Piskula who had a couple cups of coffee or Drewiske who has carved out a niche as a parttimer who's never been much more then a #7 dman in the NHL). That team won by having 2 absolute stud college scoring threats (Pavs/Earl) and had an otherwsie deep team of talent up front (Burish, McMurchy, Dowell, Joudrey, Street, Skille, Carlson, ect) and some solid depth pieces around Gilbert on the backend with a stud in net.

What has been missing in the recent lean years has been the 2 studs up front...some secondary scoring depth and the stud goaltending. 2010 we had most of the pieces with some depth up front...but not the elite level goaltending. Unfortunately, we are there on the goaltending and missing some of the depth elsewhere now.
I guess perhaps my wording of the level of D- man might be off. I'm not saying all NHL all stars at the blue line. D-men that are capable of even a cup of coffee in the bigtime are pretty high end players to me in college. Somebody will probably point out 43 guys better, but for my money, Tom Gilbert was the best defensemen in college hockey in '06. Despite my statement I'm not saying we need 6 Gary Suters because that will never happen. Heck, if I had 6 Gary Suters I'd pull the goalie to start the game, play 'em all at once and lead by six after the first shift. (I'd do that. Eaves wouldn't. ;) ) I agree that Pavs was huge, leading the team with 56 pts (Zengerle had 50 last year) but they won a lot of very low scoring games. As far as utterly dominating in 06-- Well, we averaged 3.4 gpg and gave up 2.0. In '10, with an admittedly better blue line, we averaged 4.0gpg and gave up 2.6.

As Almington again correctly says, without high quality guys there starting things off, the Badger's system suffers. So we wait for some more high end guys to develop I guess?
 
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The '06 team didn't have them in spades. I'm remembering Gilbert, but the rest of them weren't even elite defensive defensemen.

I mean, Drewiske, Engel (sp?), Likens & Klubbertanz... they were solid and played good team defense, but not on the par of the 2010 unit. Klubby was good, but I don't remember him as elite.

Kluby, Likens, and Drewiski may not have been great offensive powers, but they were above average in breaking out of the zone and working the point to distribute the puck. This crop of defensemen doesn't seem as adept at passing as the other group. I suspect that the lack of offensive D is part of the reason the top PP is struggling.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Kluby, Likens, and Drewiski may not have been great offensive powers, but they were above average in breaking out of the zone and working the point to distribute the puck. This crop of defensemen doesn't seem as adept at passing as the other group. I suspect that the lack of offensive D is part of the reason the top PP is struggling.

Long as we're on it, for fun, these were the '06 defenseman and a little about what they've been up to:

Tom Gilbert-(4th round pick), NHL All Rookie team, 407 games 163 pts Edmonton Oilers, Now with Minnesota Wild.

Kyle Klubertanz-(3rd round pick), Last year- 76 games 32 pts Hamilton Bulldogs AHL

Jeff Likens- (World Junior Team), 2007- 56 games 23 pts Manchester Monarchs AHL, Last 3 yrs- 158 games 84 pts DEL- (German Pro league)

Joe Piskula- Cup of coffee with both Kings and Flames, Last year 59 games 18 pts +10 Abbottsford Heat AHL

Davis Drewiske- Since 2008- 108 games 18pts, LA Kings NHL

Josh Engel- Last 3 yrs- 206 games 50 pts Toronto Marlies AHL

Measuring by any stick other than maybe the 2010 team, this was a pretty good bunch.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Eaves must be reading our posts, he's changing the pp unit as well to flipping Lee and Zengerlee. He had Lee and McCabe @ the point, with Barnes, Mersch and Zengerlee low. No umbrella at this point, but I like Lee at the point. He has good vision and more offensive instincts/ability than any d on the roster now. Plus he played one pp point last year.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Eaves must be reading our posts, he's changing the pp unit as well to flipping Lee and Zengerlee. He had Lee and McCabe @ the point, with Barnes, Mersch and Zengerlee low. No umbrella at this point, but I like Lee at the point. He has good vision and more offensive instincts/ability than any d on the roster now. Plus he played one pp point last year.

That's the PP they used to start the season before Lee got hurt.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Eaves must be reading our posts, he's changing the pp unit as well to flipping Lee and Zengerlee. He had Lee and McCabe @ the point, with Barnes, Mersch and Zengerlee low. No umbrella at this point, but I like Lee at the point. He has good vision and more offensive instincts/ability than any d on the roster now. Plus he played one pp point last year.

Ugh. Let's not talk about the powerplay Tim. The best thing to be said for our 57th ranked (of 59) 9% pp is that we're 59th in pp opportunities, so it doesn't get out there much.

How about we put Rumpel or Peterson at the point on their off nights and that kid that shags pucks in practice down low? Or maybe just voluntarily play with 4 guys. 6 of 66 right now... I can't see how it's possible it could get worse. That puck shagging kid could probably have kicked 8 or 9 in.

Instead, let's talk more about D, goaltending, and the fact that we have a chance to maybe win a couple this weekend. :)
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Agreed. I posted this December 8th in the old thread...

I think one of the big differences is that UW has gotten a lot of offense from their defenseman for the last 4-5 years. In 2010-2011 the defensemen put up 118 of the 357 total points in 41 games. Last season they had 95 of 294 total points in 37 games. This season they have 12 of 59 points in 13 games. Not only is the point total anemic, but the defensemen have contributed less percentage-wise than in previous years. The past few seasons they have been about a third of the total points and they are about a quarter of the total this season. Believe it or not the loss of Osiecki likely has caused some problems for UW's offense as well as their defense as we have not found dynamic offensive defensemen since he departed. Thoughts?


Bah. If that Johnson kid would have just developed like Eaves and those other guys and just put up 150 pts his Junior year, we'd have that 7th banner already hanging. :p

So, anyway, several weeks ago I was listening to Chuck's podcast as he described AA's difficulties in recruiting/retaining high end talent, leading them to play a system which relies on strong goal tending and a heavily defense oriented strategy to keep games close and give them a chance late against obviously more talented teams. Chuck touted this 'formula for success' for AA's situation as the best way for them to play in the WCHA. I totally agree with his assessment.

Later in the same podcast, (though I'm sure not making a conscience comparison at all) when talk turned to the Badgers, Chuck accurately described Bucky's 'formula for success': Strong goal tending, defense first, keep it close, and so on. All the same words and phrases he used to describe AA. Again a very good assessment, but it struck me--Why in the world does Wisconsin have the same 'formula for success' that perrennial WCHA bottom dweller AA has?
I have no idea, but it is the case. I guess I generally agree with Almington: It's the sytem that is frustrating fans and the scoreboard. As fans, when it works we're satisfied because a 1-0 win trumps a 6-5 loss every time. But when it doesn't, we're doubly unhappy because losing 2-0 and 3-1 a lot just sucks to watch.

"Wisko you moron, you've been huffing Zamboni fumes again haven't you? It's not the system at all, it's that we don't have enough studs up front!"

Yes, I have, and no, it's not. Actually, I believe it's that we don't have the studly offensive defensemen. The Eaves system starts with defense. What it relies on is NHL caliber defensemen to start the offense, make the passes, jump into the high slot, and anchor the powerplay. When it's really clicking, the system can turn the puck over and lead the nation in scoring-- even take you to the NC game. But not without super-studs on the blue line.

Adding two high flying forwards to this team would make it better of course, but would it be a top five team? I don't believe so. Because the system is not designed to work that way and unless Eaves changed things up (which he has not shown to be very willing to be flexible) those high flyer's impact would be muted by the style of play. Instead, add a couple of all star D-men to the mix. With the goaltending and guys we already have up front... The way the system works it just might make this team a contender. (Albeit one that is going to need to win 2-1 and 3-2 a lot, but that is exactly what it's supposed to do.)

So what am I saying? Just that all this longing for another Heatley, a Reinprecht, a Shuchuk, a Granato, a Lecy, a Johnson, or dare we hope-- a second coming of Bert DeHate? (Don't look at me like that. Yes, I said Bert Dehate. 47 goals - 31 games played in '67-'68.) All this longing for big time scorers is wasted breath, because as long as Eaves is in charge, what we need to pray for is more Justin Schultz, Jamie Mcbain, Craig Anderson, Brian Rafalski, Barry Richter, Theran Walsh, and Chris Chelios. Give him three Craig Norwich's and three Gary Suter's and Eaves' system (although kind of boring) is going to win a lot of games. But barring that, it's going play a lot like a better staffed AA and it's not going to be all that fun to watch.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

Ugh. Let's not talk about the powerplay Tim. The best thing to be said for our 57th ranked (of 59) 9% pp is that we're 59th in pp opportunities, so it doesn't get out there much.

How about we put Rumpel or Peterson at the point on their off nights and that kid that shags pucks in practice down low? Or maybe just voluntarily play with 4 guys. 6 of 66 right now... I can't see how it's possible it could get worse. That puck shagging kid could probably have kicked 8 or 9 in.

Instead, let's talk more about D, goaltending, and the fact that we have a chance to maybe win a couple this weekend. :)
I remember a few years ago when the PP was so bad that Eaves talked about asking if he could decline penalties. I think it's worse now.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I remember a few years ago when the PP was so bad that Eaves talked about asking if he could decline penalties. I think it's worse now.

That shows that he needs to get out of his worn out box on some of these things. The PP works when he has the talent, but doesn't when the talent level is lower. That is not acceptable. These guys aren't that bad, and I don't know that just shaking up the lines is the answer, I believe it is the system.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

My weekends predictions:

UW 3 UAA 1
UW 5 UAA 2

I believe that UW will come out and punch a few goals in this weekend with the new line combinations.

ON WISCONSIN
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

That is too bad about Zullinick's injury, he is a real good kid from Kamloops BC, loves the game, great kid from BC. Another good kid, I am looking forward to watching tonight is the young man from Swift Current Saskatchwan, real good kid, loves the game, Rumpel. When you have a good Canadian kid between the pipes that loves the game you always have a chance to win. Just both great Canadian kids.....
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I remember a few years ago when the PP was so bad that Eaves talked about asking if he could decline penalties. I think it's worse now.
It may be worse now but at least they are on the plus side. When he said that they were giving up more short handed goals than they were scoring.
 
My weekends predictions:

UW 3 UAA 1
UW 5 UAA 2

I believe that UW will come out and punch a few goals in this weekend with the new line combinations.

ON WISCONSIN

I think the Badgers will sweep this weekend, but I don't see the Badgers putting up that many goals against a UAA team that like to clog up the neutral zone and front of the net. This UAA team has been playing some pretty spirited hockey on Fridays, but mailing it in on Saturdays. So if the Badgers do put up a big number this weekend, it will likely be on Saturday.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

It may be worse now but at least they are on the plus side. When he said that they were giving up more short handed goals than they were scoring.

Was that during the Kyle Klubertanz fall down behind the net every PP season? He had to been on the ice when almost every one of those SH goals was scored.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I remember a few years ago when the PP was so bad that Eaves talked about asking if he could decline penalties. I think it's worse now.


Yeah, it's bad but obviously with a little simple math we can show that Eaves was just being a jokester as usual. Ridiculous notion -- declining penalties!! Hah!!

To prove it I'll just take a quick glance at the conference numbers...

I see, sadly, only averaging 2.19 gpg in the WCHA. Oh well. Wow. Only 4/54 on the pp? But still...

Ok 191 minutes assessed against opponents in 16 games... Ok... 4 g/ 191 minutes... Hang on here, I think this calculator is broken or something, let me get a pencil...

...

Something is still wrong... because I keep coming up with 1.254 goals per 60 minutes on the pp?

So we'd have about 20 goals vs. 35 if we played all 60 minutes of all 16 games on the pp?

umm.... Nevermind.
 
Re: WISCONSIN Hockey Vol. XXIV - Craziest Season Of All Time

I think the Badgers will sweep this weekend, but I don't see the Badgers putting up that many goals against a UAA team that like to clog up the neutral zone and front of the net. This UAA team has been playing some pretty spirited hockey on Fridays, but mailing it in on Saturdays. So if the Badgers do put up a big number this weekend, it will likely be on Saturday.

Isn't that what I have? 3 goals Friday and 5 on Saturday.
 
Isn't that what I have? 3 goals Friday and 5 on Saturday.

I was saying I didn't see UW scoring 5 either night. But if they do, I was agreeing with you that it would be Saturday.

Though, now that I look at the stats, Anchorage is giving up 3.32 goals/game, and the game is at Wisconsin.

So, you could be right. They just play such a frustrating style that you always come away feeling like your team could have gotten more if they didn't always park 4 guys in front of their net, clogging up shooting lanes all game long.
 
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