ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
Also, nice article on Justin Schultz from Baggott.
Also, nice article on Justin Schultz from Baggott.
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Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
- Thread starter Almington
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solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
I'm curious about Jdubbs theory (the link he posted to MN article from last year).
are early departures having that big an impact?...one would think you'd recruit to land a Stepan and Smith type every two years so they should (in theory) be replaced rather quickly. for many of these guys they step in and score immediately (see Zent, Jason, and many others down the line)
also assistant coaches, anyone else have thoughts on their impact thusfar or lack of one?
I guess the more I think about it (and I've been in the stands for 4 games) and watched at least 8 via stream, the more I'm wondering about how these guys are developing or not. I don't see improvement from game 1 to today...I don't think in anyone except maybe #16.
I've got more thoughts on recruiting. I know UW can't target everyone who has 30+pts in Juniors or HS but it seems like they've gotten an inordinate amount of guys who didn't score at all prior to UW, I'm wondering what the philosophy is to have more than 3-4 of those on a team (forwards only). the past 2 years especially I've seen the names and the bios and read quotes and just wondered..."why this guy?"
thoughts?
I'm curious about Jdubbs theory (the link he posted to MN article from last year).
are early departures having that big an impact?...one would think you'd recruit to land a Stepan and Smith type every two years so they should (in theory) be replaced rather quickly. for many of these guys they step in and score immediately (see Zent, Jason, and many others down the line)
also assistant coaches, anyone else have thoughts on their impact thusfar or lack of one?
I guess the more I think about it (and I've been in the stands for 4 games) and watched at least 8 via stream, the more I'm wondering about how these guys are developing or not. I don't see improvement from game 1 to today...I don't think in anyone except maybe #16.
I've got more thoughts on recruiting. I know UW can't target everyone who has 30+pts in Juniors or HS but it seems like they've gotten an inordinate amount of guys who didn't score at all prior to UW, I'm wondering what the philosophy is to have more than 3-4 of those on a team (forwards only). the past 2 years especially I've seen the names and the bios and read quotes and just wondered..."why this guy?"
thoughts?
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
!!!!!
No pressure or anything, Blake. I'm sure there will be no unfair expectations...
!!!!!
No pressure or anything, Blake. I'm sure there will be no unfair expectations...
MadCityRich
20 Years and Counting
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
What once WAS the Nashville Badgers is becoming the Predators again. I can't see Ryan Suter staying with them as well. Shea Weber makes 7.5 MIL per. I don't think they'll want 2 "D" on the same line making double digit millions of bucks.
ExileOnDaytonStreet
Drunkard
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
Dear Wild,
Trade for Suter.
Signed,
EoDS
Dear Wild,
Trade for Suter.
Signed,
EoDS
Chuck Schwartz
New member
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
Wisconsin has lost 7 players to pros over the past two years. They also lost Matt Thurber. That's basically double what any other school in the league has lost in the same period. (Denver 4), Minnesota (3), UMD (3), UND (2), UAA (2), SCSU (1).
Stepan was also a huge shock, especially since even within weeks of leaving he told everyone he was back.
You can't simply just have replacements for these types of players for when they shock and leave early. The majority of premier players that would replace a Stepan or a Smith is going to be an elite 18 year old, and that type of player is already in the recruiting class, no an older player that you can just all of a sudden bring into your program.
And I'm always curious when you bring up this Jason Zent thing? Because one guy stepped in and had 37 points in his rookie year in 1990? What does a recruit from 1990 have to do with anything. That said, I don't know what team you're watching, but the Badger team I follow has had freshmen the past few years of (Zengerle, 36 points), (C. Smith 33 points), (Stepan 33 points). But I guess we simply don't have those Jason Zent type recruits anymore.
Way too early to say. Give them another year or two, 98% of the players on the roster weren't recruited by them.
In building a college hockey roster, you need to strike a balance between goal scorers, passers, grinders, energy, projects etc. For the most part Eaves has done an exceptional job, and it's shown in his championship run years. However, when your roster is decimated like it has been lately, you simply can't bring in an elite scorer every time you lose one, I explained that earlier.
The only real grinders that was recruited as such are Sean Little, and Keegan Meuer and they dowhat they were recruited to do.
Ryan Little was a defenseman and has developed into a weapon as a two way grinder. Who are these others that you talk of? Lapic was a big time scorer in high school but turned into a bust in junior hockey, he was simply a recruiting miss...no way around that. Hartzog is on little scholarship and is a project player. Dahl led a USHL team in scoring the year before he came in, not really a grinder type move.
Who else are you talking about? Clark...was thought of as a big time scoring talent but injuries have derailed his first two years. Woods has the potential to develop into a big time power forward, Navin too.
Don't forget that Cody Strang was a USHL All-Star expected to come in this season and would have made an impact offensively.
The simple facts are this, Wisconsin lost more than double what any other team lost the past two seasons from the WCHA. They have the youngest roster in the league. They lose only two players off this roster. Every single player is going to take strides forward and they bring in some elite talents that should get everyone excited.
There is no reason to over-analyze this season. You simply cannot take the hits the Badgers did the past two seasons and expect to be good.
Wisconsin Hockey: Onward and upward.
Yes. I've wrote about it. Baggot's wrote about it. It's had a HUGE impact, and not in a good way.
Wisconsin has lost 7 players to pros over the past two years. They also lost Matt Thurber. That's basically double what any other school in the league has lost in the same period. (Denver 4), Minnesota (3), UMD (3), UND (2), UAA (2), SCSU (1).
Stepan and Smith are part of the problem that you don't seem to understand. Craig Smith committed to Wisconsin in high school. He was passed up in the NHL draft at least two times. Can you honestly look me in the face and tell me that Mike Eaves should have planning on replacing Craig Smith after two seasons?
Stepan was also a huge shock, especially since even within weeks of leaving he told everyone he was back.
You can't simply just have replacements for these types of players for when they shock and leave early. The majority of premier players that would replace a Stepan or a Smith is going to be an elite 18 year old, and that type of player is already in the recruiting class, no an older player that you can just all of a sudden bring into your program.
And I'm always curious when you bring up this Jason Zent thing? Because one guy stepped in and had 37 points in his rookie year in 1990? What does a recruit from 1990 have to do with anything. That said, I don't know what team you're watching, but the Badger team I follow has had freshmen the past few years of (Zengerle, 36 points), (C. Smith 33 points), (Stepan 33 points). But I guess we simply don't have those Jason Zent type recruits anymore.
Way too early to say. Give them another year or two, 98% of the players on the roster weren't recruited by them.
I just don't understand how you don't see improvement. Michael Mersch has turned into a beast in the second half of the season. Keegan Meuer is playing his best hockey as a Badger. LaBate gets better every shift. Brendan Woods has gotten so much better this season it's not even funny. Do I need to go on? Because I can.
In building a college hockey roster, you need to strike a balance between goal scorers, passers, grinders, energy, projects etc. For the most part Eaves has done an exceptional job, and it's shown in his championship run years. However, when your roster is decimated like it has been lately, you simply can't bring in an elite scorer every time you lose one, I explained that earlier.
The only real grinders that was recruited as such are Sean Little, and Keegan Meuer and they dowhat they were recruited to do.
Ryan Little was a defenseman and has developed into a weapon as a two way grinder. Who are these others that you talk of? Lapic was a big time scorer in high school but turned into a bust in junior hockey, he was simply a recruiting miss...no way around that. Hartzog is on little scholarship and is a project player. Dahl led a USHL team in scoring the year before he came in, not really a grinder type move.
Who else are you talking about? Clark...was thought of as a big time scoring talent but injuries have derailed his first two years. Woods has the potential to develop into a big time power forward, Navin too.
Don't forget that Cody Strang was a USHL All-Star expected to come in this season and would have made an impact offensively.
The simple facts are this, Wisconsin lost more than double what any other team lost the past two seasons from the WCHA. They have the youngest roster in the league. They lose only two players off this roster. Every single player is going to take strides forward and they bring in some elite talents that should get everyone excited.
There is no reason to over-analyze this season. You simply cannot take the hits the Badgers did the past two seasons and expect to be good.
Wisconsin Hockey: Onward and upward.
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G
Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
That's all fine and dandy but I prefer to just blame Eaves.
That's all fine and dandy but I prefer to just blame Eaves.
JDUBBS1280
MN Hockey Enthusiast
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
I love how Chuck cherry picks his time frames to try and down play my remark. Of course UW has lost more players early in the last 2 YEARS than anyone else. Hence, 11th place.
In the last 7 years, you've HARDLY been the most effected. Hence, two championship games.
Like I said, the issues you're facing now are very similar to the problems the Gophers dealt with. Players leaving early (we had more one and dones) that lead to bringing guys in before they are ready, etc...
I love how Chuck cherry picks his time frames to try and down play my remark. Of course UW has lost more players early in the last 2 YEARS than anyone else. Hence, 11th place.
In the last 7 years, you've HARDLY been the most effected. Hence, two championship games.
Like I said, the issues you're facing now are very similar to the problems the Gophers dealt with. Players leaving early (we had more one and dones) that lead to bringing guys in before they are ready, etc...
Chuck Schwartz
New member
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to Solo's post. I don't even know what you posted.
Edit: Just an FYI, I've added you to my ignore list...so there will be no more responses from me to you.
I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to Solo's post. I don't even know what you posted.
Edit: Just an FYI, I've added you to my ignore list...so there will be no more responses from me to you.
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Chuck Schwartz
New member
MadCityRich
20 Years and Counting
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
Don't the goofs have their own board? Maybe varsitywiscosnin moved to East Dakota and that's his new alias. I don't mind the responsible goof posters who have "cred".
Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
05-06: Earl, Pavs
06-07: Skille, Piskula
07-08: Turris
08-09: McBain
09-10: B. Smith, McDonagh, Goloubef, Stepan
10-11: C. Smith, Gardiner, Murray
That doesn't count the players who committed but never made it to UW or those that left for MJ who might have become major contributors as upperclassmen.
05-06: Earl, Pavs
06-07: Skille, Piskula
07-08: Turris
08-09: McBain
09-10: B. Smith, McDonagh, Goloubef, Stepan
10-11: C. Smith, Gardiner, Murray
That doesn't count the players who committed but never made it to UW or those that left for MJ who might have become major contributors as upperclassmen.
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NEWI Badger Fan
Registered User
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
Sam Gagner comes to mind. What could have been. IIRC, B. Smith, Goloubef and Gagner were friends and previously played together. Gagner decommitted and played for London Knights instead.
Sam Gagner comes to mind. What could have been. IIRC, B. Smith, Goloubef and Gagner were friends and previously played together. Gagner decommitted and played for London Knights instead.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
thanks. I always appreciate your insight and honesty. Even when if/when I disagree or I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
in regard to progress of the current players I def don't see what you see. instead of the team getting stronger as individuals (as you allude to Mersch and Woods for eg) get better and help make the team better, I think the team is stagnating at best.
I recall Craig Smith being highly talked up on these boards prior to playing @ the Kohl so I guess in a way I wasn't surprised he put up Zent-like numbers in his two seasons. he was one I thought was ready to go to the SHOW when he did, apparently the staff didn't think so. Stepan? no, I didn't think he'd leave so point made there.
I guess I'm slowly coming around to the conclusion that Jdubbs is more right than wrong re: the last 4 years but I'm also not convinced the players are developing like they should. I sort of expected Ramage to have a solid to great year and Faust and Simonelli to raise their games a notch and I don't think they have. Barnes and Mersch I expected to really stand out in top line roles but I don't know...
w/grinders I'll come clean. I mean Little x2, Meuer, Hartzog, Woods, Paape, Navin, Clark. and I say that with the full acknowledgment I thought Paape was going to become something more than what he's shown thusfar. I sort of consider this team wide open in terms of top 1-2 line spots are being auditioned for and I just don't see anyone stepping up for those roles. Add to that...on an NCAA Championship caliber team, I think 2/3 of the UW line 1 and 2 would be 3rd liners (ala Skille in 06). but that's just my current assessment. maybe the kids turn it up next year and prove me wrong.
...re: Zent, yeah I refer to those classes often most likely as that's when I was going to every home saturday game and that era through 93 was quite possibly (going back to 89 to start even) the heaviest I'd seen on talent at the UW (keep in mind I started watching in 84 so didn't get to see the Johnson teams). those years it wasn't leaving early it was high-talent guys graduating (though they did suffer a couple of losses, Ricci not coming, Holzinger not coming, Sean Hill all but forced out) but they just kept re-loading.
anyway thanks for your thoughts on all of this
thanks. I always appreciate your insight and honesty. Even when if/when I disagree or I'm not seeing what you're seeing.
in regard to progress of the current players I def don't see what you see. instead of the team getting stronger as individuals (as you allude to Mersch and Woods for eg) get better and help make the team better, I think the team is stagnating at best.
I recall Craig Smith being highly talked up on these boards prior to playing @ the Kohl so I guess in a way I wasn't surprised he put up Zent-like numbers in his two seasons. he was one I thought was ready to go to the SHOW when he did, apparently the staff didn't think so. Stepan? no, I didn't think he'd leave so point made there.
I guess I'm slowly coming around to the conclusion that Jdubbs is more right than wrong re: the last 4 years but I'm also not convinced the players are developing like they should. I sort of expected Ramage to have a solid to great year and Faust and Simonelli to raise their games a notch and I don't think they have. Barnes and Mersch I expected to really stand out in top line roles but I don't know...
w/grinders I'll come clean. I mean Little x2, Meuer, Hartzog, Woods, Paape, Navin, Clark. and I say that with the full acknowledgment I thought Paape was going to become something more than what he's shown thusfar. I sort of consider this team wide open in terms of top 1-2 line spots are being auditioned for and I just don't see anyone stepping up for those roles. Add to that...on an NCAA Championship caliber team, I think 2/3 of the UW line 1 and 2 would be 3rd liners (ala Skille in 06). but that's just my current assessment. maybe the kids turn it up next year and prove me wrong.
...re: Zent, yeah I refer to those classes often most likely as that's when I was going to every home saturday game and that era through 93 was quite possibly (going back to 89 to start even) the heaviest I'd seen on talent at the UW (keep in mind I started watching in 84 so didn't get to see the Johnson teams). those years it wasn't leaving early it was high-talent guys graduating (though they did suffer a couple of losses, Ricci not coming, Holzinger not coming, Sean Hill all but forced out) but they just kept re-loading.
anyway thanks for your thoughts on all of this
Chuck Schwartz
New member
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
I'm just not sure your criticisms are necessarily always fair.
The Zent thing is one that I'm just confused about. Especially when our top forward recruits have been pretty impressive if you ask me.
12-Kerdiles
11-LaBate
10-Zengerle
09-C. Smith
09-Stepan
07-Turris
06-Geoffrion
05-Skille
04-Pavelski
03-Earl
The first 7 on the list have all played in the NHL.
There are some other things too. I mean it's hard to judge Brad Navin right now. He was scheduled to be a 2013 recruit when he commited. He was accellerated not just one, but TWO years to come in as an 18 year old freshman because USHL All-Star Cody Strang couldn't pass the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Clark missed the majority of last season and the start of this season due to reoccurring hip issues that resulted in two surgeries this summer. He also missed many games with a concussion this season. He was projected to be a top 6 type forward when he was brought in (and drafted pretty high in the NHL draft).
11 of the 12 forwards in the lineup tonight are freshmen or sophomores. Did you know that Blake Geoffrion, the same Blake Geoffrion that won a Hobey Baker at Wisconsin and has played in the NHL recorded 6 points as a freshman for the Badgers? Paape, LaBate, and Woods are all freshmen (in a terrible season for UW) and have eclipsed that total, and Navin likely will as well.
I'll give you Ramage, but to say that Faust and Simonelli haven't improved is silly to me. Especially Simonelli...sure he's playing with Schultz...but there's a reason he's playing with Schultz and it's because he's one of the top blue-liners on this team right now. Simonelli has already gotten to 15 points this year and is second on the team at +8. How has he not taken strides?
I mean this was expected to be a down year, it's not exactly fair to compare lines from a National Championship team.
I'm just not sure your criticisms are necessarily always fair.
The Zent thing is one that I'm just confused about. Especially when our top forward recruits have been pretty impressive if you ask me.
12-Kerdiles
11-LaBate
10-Zengerle
09-C. Smith
09-Stepan
07-Turris
06-Geoffrion
05-Skille
04-Pavelski
03-Earl
The first 7 on the list have all played in the NHL.
There are some other things too. I mean it's hard to judge Brad Navin right now. He was scheduled to be a 2013 recruit when he commited. He was accellerated not just one, but TWO years to come in as an 18 year old freshman because USHL All-Star Cody Strang couldn't pass the NCAA Clearinghouse.
Clark missed the majority of last season and the start of this season due to reoccurring hip issues that resulted in two surgeries this summer. He also missed many games with a concussion this season. He was projected to be a top 6 type forward when he was brought in (and drafted pretty high in the NHL draft).
11 of the 12 forwards in the lineup tonight are freshmen or sophomores. Did you know that Blake Geoffrion, the same Blake Geoffrion that won a Hobey Baker at Wisconsin and has played in the NHL recorded 6 points as a freshman for the Badgers? Paape, LaBate, and Woods are all freshmen (in a terrible season for UW) and have eclipsed that total, and Navin likely will as well.
I'll give you Ramage, but to say that Faust and Simonelli haven't improved is silly to me. Especially Simonelli...sure he's playing with Schultz...but there's a reason he's playing with Schultz and it's because he's one of the top blue-liners on this team right now. Simonelli has already gotten to 15 points this year and is second on the team at +8. How has he not taken strides?
I mean this was expected to be a down year, it's not exactly fair to compare lines from a National Championship team.
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Almington
Blood Boiling with Rage and Hate
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
The game has changed a LOT since the late 80's and early 90's too, scoring is much lower at nearly ALL levels of play. I guess that the players in the NHL just don't have the skill that the players in past have had. It's a much different case of having a underclassman step up due to graduations as opposed to expecting all freshmen to just step in a play like experienced juniors and seniors from day one (otherwise they are never going to be any more than a untalented grinder), for the vast majority of players that isn't the case and it's why most Freshmen and Sophomore play behind or with Juniors and Seniors. Uw doesn't have any upperclassmen, it's a baptism by fire for everyone on the team.
The game has changed a LOT since the late 80's and early 90's too, scoring is much lower at nearly ALL levels of play. I guess that the players in the NHL just don't have the skill that the players in past have had. It's a much different case of having a underclassman step up due to graduations as opposed to expecting all freshmen to just step in a play like experienced juniors and seniors from day one (otherwise they are never going to be any more than a untalented grinder), for the vast majority of players that isn't the case and it's why most Freshmen and Sophomore play behind or with Juniors and Seniors. Uw doesn't have any upperclassmen, it's a baptism by fire for everyone on the team.
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
Yeah, 680 says it has the game but there's nothing there. I'm officially PO'd.
Yeah, 680 says it has the game but there's nothing there. I'm officially PO'd.
NEWI Badger Fan
Registered User
Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience
FWIW: TW Cable has the game on Fox Sports Atlantic.
FWIW: TW Cable has the game on Fox Sports Atlantic.
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