Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

If North Dakota and Denver are doing such a better job than Wisconsin, then why haven't they played for a National Championship since 2005, when Wisconsin has played for two in that time span?

Because ANYTHING can happen in a one-and-done tournament. To use that as your only criteria is silly.

How many Frozen Fours has UND been to while Eaves has been the coach at UW? UND, Michigan and BC are the current benchmarks for college hockey program excellence. To argue otherwise is silly.

Back to Back seasons without home ice in the first round is unacceptable, I don't care how many NCAA title games the team has played in over the past 6 seasons. Which is a completely arbitrary time frame and ignores the success that DU, MN and UND had in the seasons just prior to that, go back to cover all of Eaves tenure as HC are the comparisons are even worse.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Because ANYTHING can happen in a one-and-done tournament. To use that as your only criteria is silly.

How many Frozen Fours has UND been to while Eaves has been the coach at UW? UND, Michigan and BC are the current benchmarks for college hockey program excellence. To argue otherwise is silly.

Back to Back seasons without home ice in the first round is unacceptable, I don't care how many NCAA title games the team has played in over the past 6 seasons. Which is a completely arbitrary time frame and ignores the success that DU, MN and UND had in the seasons just prior to that, go back to cover all of Eaves tenure as HC are the comparisons are even worse.

Remind me again what WCHA school's resume over the past 5 years you would take over over the Badgers?

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

If North Dakota and Denver are doing such a better job than Wisconsin, then why haven't they played for a National Championship since 2005, when Wisconsin has played for two in that time span?

Here are some stats to put things in perspective since 2005-2006:

DENVER
-NCAA tournament record 1-4
-2 missed tournaments
-0 championships
-0 finals appearances

NORTH DAKOTA
-NCAA tournament record 8-6
-0 missed tournaments
-0 championships
-0 finals appearances

MINNESOTA
-NCAA tournament record 1-3
-3 missed tournaments
-0 championships
-0 finals appearances

WISCONSIN
-NCAA tournament record 8-2
-3 missed tournaments
-1 championships
-2 finals appearances

Wisconsin Hockey: In Eaves we trust

UW has a great NCAA record w/EVERY head coach. I KNOW their history. 24 times in the NCAA's. of those 24 entrances, 12 times or 50% of the time they make the Frozen Four (astounding). of 12 times in the Frozen Four they advance to the title game 9 times (incredible) and go 6-3.

Here is what I find unacceptable. guess what happens when UW doesn't make the tournament this year? it will be their 4th time in 6 years on the outside looking in. UNACCEPTABLE.

06-07 OUT
07-08 NCAA
08-09 OUT
09-10 NCAA
10-11 OUT
11-12 unless they win 9 or 10 more games of their remaining 14 they're OUT

those numbers of NCAA out's are what got Sauer fired (along with a malaise in recruiting efforts) btw. I'm not saying Coach Eaves should be on the hotseat so don't take it in that direction but it's an interesting statistical coincidence. What I AM saying is Expectations should be higher for this program. like what you'll see below

you're stat comparisons aren't fair as Almington said because you didn't go back to 2003 but ALSO you used Minnesota (which I didn't but fine, go back to 2003 then if you're going to do that)...

Anyway I used BC, DU, Nodak, Michigan, Notre Dame and having said that and using my own arbitrary timeline here goes:

DU has been in 7 out of the last 10 years
06-07 OUT
07-08 NCAA
08-09 NCAA
09-10 NCAA
10-11 NCAA
11-12 thusfar homeice WCHA

Nodak - made the tourney in 14 of the last 15 years!
06-07 NCAA
07-08 NCAA
08-09 NCAA
09-10 NCAA
10-11 NCAA
11-12 tbd

BC in the tourney 12 of the last 14 seasons
06-07 NCAA
07-08 NCAA
08-09 OUT
09-10 NCAA
10-11 NCAA
11-12 they'll be in

MICH - 21 straight NCAA appearances
06-07 NCAA
07-08 NCAA
08-09 NCAA
09-10 NCAA
10-11 NCAA
11-12 on the bubble currently

Notre Dame - clearly Jeff Jackson (2 titles at LSSU) has turned this team around and quick
06-07 NCAA
07-08 NCAA
08-09 NCAA
09-10 OUT
10-11 NCAA
11-12 will be in

this is my point.

I don't want UW to constantly re-build every 3 years after they make their ONE, and I mean ONE run with any group of players. I want to see them re-load. period.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Remind me again what WCHA school's resume over the past 5 years you would take over over the Badgers?

Last 5 seasons: 06-07, 07-08, 08-09, 09-10, 10-11: UW: 2 First-round Home Ice, 0 MacNaughton Cups, 0 Final Five Championships, 2 NCAA appearances, 1 Frozen Four

I would take UND and DU hands down:
UND: 5 First-round Home Ice, 2 MacNaughton Cups, 2 Final Five Championships, 5 NCAA appearances, 3 Frozen Fours
DU: 5 First-round Home Ice, 1 MacNaughton Cups, 1 Final Five Championship, 4 NCAA appearances, 0 Frozen Fours

I would argue that MN, CC, and UMD all have resumes better than what UW has done given they have either WCHA regular season or playoff titles (and UMD has the NC from last season).
MN: 4 First-round Home Ice, 1 MacNaughton Cups, 1 Final Five Championships, 2 NCAA appearances, 0 Frozen Fours
CC: 4 First-round Home Ice, 1 MacNaughton Cup, 0 Final Five Championships, 2 NCAA appearances, 0 Frozen Fours
UMD: 2 First-round Home Ice, 0 MacNaughton Cups, 1 Final Five Championships, 2 NCAA appearances, 1 Frozen Fours, 1 National Title

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Devils Advocate nonsense:

Is it fair to use WCHA titles in the discussion? We don't exactly have much of a conference trophy case, for all of our NCAA successes, and that's been true since the days of Badger Bob.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Chuck - some of your statements sound a lot like the people who say that we must be satisfied with the football program or basketball program because they're better than most other B1G programs or my favorite admonishment - You've forgotten how bad it was back in the 70's and 80's!.

I'm 42, so I remember how bad our football and basketball programs were and I also remember how good our hockey program was year in and year out. Back to football and basketball for a moment. So because we were awful up until 93 or so, we have to accept and live in some sort of stasis and never accomplish anything beyond winning the Rose Bowl (which no longer has anywhere near the significance it once had - just another football game now) or going to the NCAA Tourney and then flaming out to a team that we should beat? I don't accept that. At some point, as a fan, I need to believe that we can do better or I get bored with the same old same old.

On to hockey.

As far as choosing which WCHA team I'd like us to be, why does it need to be a WCHA team? For one thing, we are about to NOT be a WCHA team. For another, I've never looked at it as which team's resume would I want. What I want is for us to be consistently good with a higher baseline than we've shown under Eaves. Too many valleys with only a couple of peaks.

Sure, 2006 will live on as a highlight of my sports fandom, but the most recent championship game was a lowlight. Getting there and getting blown out of the building is not an accomplishment worthy of celebrating. Truth be told, I never thought that team was good enough to be National Champs, and I said so throughout that year right in this forum. Something was lacking that was hard to pinpoint.

I digress... I am frustrated with the crappy to mediocre seasons that have followed BOTH of our title game appearances. You can point to late defections as a factor, but what does them being late have to do with anything? If Pavelski had told Eaves in April that he was leaving, was there a Pavelski replacement sitting there waiting to be signed who wasn't there in late August? Same for Smith and Steppan.

Their replacements needed to already be in the fold or signed and on their way. Instead, we seem to have a pool of players like Ben Grotting (nothing against him personally) or even Ben Street who fill a role, but we don't need 12 of them on the team at a time. When you only have 1 or 2 truly skilled game-changing players on your roster, their departure will hurt. Now I realize that Pavelskis and Steppans don't grow on trees, but why don't we have more Davies etc?

Skill guys that maybe aren't complete players, but can snipe or dangle or skate real fast. Add them to the mix of defensive, system plodders and you have a chance to be a more complete team. For whatever reason, Eaves has chosen to recruit a lot of the same kind of forward with a few flashes in the pan.

Anyway, I'm tired of not getting back to what we once were as a hockey program just like these other guys. Maybe that's not feasible anymore, but I would think that with this city and the KC we should have recruiting advantages over at least 90% of other D1 schools, so it's not like Eaves has to stand on his head to make the case. Still, really good players go to some interesting places, and not here.

Call me spoiled or whatever, but at some point, you gotta do more. It seems that a number of fans here in town feel the same way as attendance is terrible lately and while I believe that the economy is a huge factor, the product is probably a factor as well.

As a final disclaimer though, I'm interested to see how this most recent group of frosh and sophs turns out as there seems to be more raw offensive talent across a large number of them than I've seen since Eaves has been here. Maybe he's onto it now and we'll be proven wrong although we thought that briefly in 2008-09 and turns out we were still right.

1 National championship in 10 years is the minimum for Wisconsin hockey. It's hard to make the case that Eaves has exceeded expectations.

Ramble over for now...

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Devils Advocate nonsense:

Is it fair to use WCHA titles in the discussion? We don't exactly have much of a conference trophy case, for all of our NCAA successes, and that's been true since the days of Badger Bob.

Yes, while NCAA championships are the ultimate prize, conference championships are a valuable secondary prize. The real issue is the 3 or 5 years without first round home ice and the 3/5 years missing the NCAA tournament. Those are the truly unacceptable numbers. UW should NOT be missing the NCAA tournament 60% of the time or on the road in the first round of the playoffs 60% of the time over ANY 5 year period.

 

[Gandalf the Red]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Yes, while NCAA championships are the ultimate prize, conference championships are a valuable secondary prize. The real issue is the 3 or 5 years without first round home ice and the 3/5 years missing the NCAA tournament. Those are the truly unacceptable numbers. UW should NOT be missing the NCAA tournament 60% of the time or on the road in the first round of the playoffs 60% of the time over ANY 5 year period.

Between your comment and Gurtholfin, I think you both have it summed it. I don't care much about the WCHA Titles either, it would be great (maybe UW can win the last one next season), but the NCAA Tourney is the real goal. My minimums are WCHA home ice, a trip to the Final Five and a NCAA appearence. If they lose in the first round or make an improbable run to the Frozen Four, it can't happen if you aren't invited. There will be down seasons on occasion, but it shouldn't be every other season.

I do have great hope for the next several seasons. If Schultz is the only early departure, this team will be loaded w/ experience next season at forward, and a year better in goal, along w/ the agruably a top notch 4 player recruiting class. All four might be immediate starters next October. So that sets up the next season and the season after that one. If Eaves doesn't make 3 consecutive NCAA trips in 2013, 14 & 15, I will truly be disappointing (barring something unexpected happening).

This season isn't lost, there is still plenty of time for the boys to make some noise starting this weekend against the cows.

 

[MadCityRich]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Off topic quick help: I have all of my settings on USCHO 2011, ALL OF THEM, but every time I change a page, it reverts to USCHO Mobile. I have made sure to save those settings as well. ***?

Thanks.

 

[Dalangalang]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

If Wisconsin is to be considered a top program (note that I wrote PROGRAM, not TEAM), they should have home ice 9 out of 10 years and make the NCAAs 8 out of every 10 years. I consider Wisconsin one of the top programs (along with BC, Mich, NoDak, MN, Den, among others) and top programs don't have such peaks and valleys. The Dukes, Kansas & North Carolinas of B-Ball are considered top programs and they hardly ever miss the NCAAs. Yes, they may not win it all every year, but they are always in the Tournament.

 

[Timothy A]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

How good would this team be if Craig Smith didn't get invited to play in the World Championships, or if Jordy Murray's father never coached in Switzerland?

I will agree my original posting of "How good would they be if...." wasn't the most well thought out comment of my illustrious career here, it was obviously kind of an after-thought. Chuck is right, you can't pose the what if questions because no one really knows how it would have turned out. I apologize for putting the fuse in the powderkeg.

It is amazing guys like Smith and Stepan can just go right from UW to the NHL like they never missed a beat.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

If Wisconsin is to be considered a top program (note that I wrote PROGRAM, not TEAM), they should have home ice 9 out of 10 years and make the NCAAs 8 out of every 10 years. I consider Wisconsin one of the top programs (along with BC, Mich, NoDak, MN, Den, among others) and top programs don't have such peaks and valleys. The Dukes, Kansas & North Carolinas of B-Ball are considered top programs and they hardly ever miss the NCAAs. Yes, they may not win it all every year, but they are always in the Tournament.

right on

 

[sweatpants]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

If Wisconsin is to be considered a top program (note that I wrote PROGRAM, not TEAM), they should have home ice 9 out of 10 years and make the NCAAs 8 out of every 10 years. I consider Wisconsin one of the top programs (along with BC, Mich, NoDak, MN, Den, among others) and top programs don't have such peaks and valleys. The Dukes, Kansas & North Carolinas of B-Ball are considered top programs and they hardly ever miss the NCAAs. Yes, they may not win it all every year, but they are always in the Tournament.

Also agree.

 

[Almington]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

If Wisconsin is to be considered a top program (note that I wrote PROGRAM, not TEAM), they should have home ice 9 out of 10 years and make the NCAAs 8 out of every 10 years. I consider Wisconsin one of the top programs (along with BC, Mich, NoDak, MN, Den, among others) and top programs don't have such peaks and valleys. The Dukes, Kansas & North Carolinas of B-Ball are considered top programs and they hardly ever miss the NCAAs. Yes, they may not win it all every year, but they are always in the Tournament.

You can't win the tournament if you don't make the tournament. UW should be making the NCAAs at least 75% of the time.

 

[Carter]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Is there any compilation of data that would show how many division 1 players leave early each year for the pros? I know it's significantly higher than it was back in the '70s and '80s, but I have no idea if it's continuously on an upward trend or if it spikes and subsides. I don't think I show as much forgiveness to the staff (all staffs) for losing players early as perhaps I should.

 

[Chuck Schwartz]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Is there any compilation of data that would show how many division 1 players leave early each year for the pros? I know it's significantly higher than it was back in the '70s and '80s, but I have no idea if it's continuously on an upward trend or if it spikes and subsides. I don't think I show as much forgiveness to the staff (all staffs) for losing players early as perhaps I should.

It took a major spike since the 2004-2005 NHL lockout. With rookie max contracts coming in at under a million bucks (not counting bonuses), it's more cost effective for teams to pull kids earlier.

 

[UWisco]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Anybody think the Badgers can come out of Mankato with a sweep this weekend. Have to hope and pray.

 

[Gurtholfin]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

Anybody think the Badgers can come out of Mankato with a sweep this weekend. Have to hope and pray.

I think they can.

Not bettin' the house on it though...

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I think they can.

Not bettin' the house on it though...

Free ream of paper for everyone on Gurt if they do. Don't waste any though. Every sheet cost Gurty a brain cell.

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[burd]

Re: Wisconsin Hockey: Vol. XX - Growth Through Experience

I think they can.

Not bettin' the house on it though...

For some reason, maybe it's Jutting, the Mavs seem like a snake you can safely beat to death with a shovel but that will manage to bite you now and then.