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Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Not really, as most lose money on hockey. Only 4 had earned profits while 25 had earned losses. And while I didn't breakdown baseball for the hockey schools, looking at Texas Tech's 2018 NCAA financial report the school reported losing $2.6 million on baseball, while Arkansas reported losing $621 thousand on baseball on its 2018 financial report.
Accounting is wacky for NCAA sports... If you don't think UND hockey as a standalone business would be profitable (they have an avg loss on the second tab of your spreadsheet) I have some bad news for you.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

That's my point. Without strict adherence to CDC guidelines we are having multiple 70-day cycles. I think he was more saying that whether you flatten the curve or not, it's a 70-day curve. That's ok when everyone that will get infected is on the same curve. The problem with his assertion that it will run its course in 70 days is that a lot of people are still contracting the virus well into the cycle and starting it over again.

Then we have those #Covidiots down in Lansing and other capitols that will probably knock us right back to day 1.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

One article from Tel Aviv? Well, that settles it
:rolleyes:
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

I'm talking about baseball at southern schools where it's a huge deal. Hockey at a place like Minnesota.
There is no way that any program turns a profit on hockey or baseball.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

If there is no football, sure you lose revenue but you also save on travel costs, hotels etc.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Athletic departments generally don't make money, but lose it. Ohio State, one of the few that usually does turn a profit (but not last year), some of the profit is returned to the school and some goes into an athletic reserve fund. However, the OSU reserve fund only had $8.9 million in it as of mid-February.

Minnesota (2019) generally breaks even but yeah their margins are not robust. However, if they (and similar programs) take a hit for one season most will survive.
2018.
2017.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Michigan, Ohio state, Notre Dame fund there entire athletic budget from football. If there is no football, there is no money. The Millions$ that these schools bring in will make it impossible to fund all of there remaining sports.

To your point, the Notre Dame athletic director was on ESPN radio this morning and said very clearly, if there are no students on campus in the fall, there will be no fall sports. He also said that ND football contributes about 90% of the overall revenues...
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Finances are only part of the answer, albeit an important part. The larger question for colleges is whether they can even house students first semester, or if they have to remain as on-line learning. No colleges have answered that yet, and for the major ones, the push of football revenue is a piece of that analysis -- but it still pales in comparison to the broader question of having an on-campus first semester (or year). Another aspect is the liability of allowing students back on, and then having an outbreak. The bills that Congress is considering now may shield that liability somewhat. Apart from the financial liability, there is a real concern about the health and safety of the students, and if there is an outbreak, potneially pulling the plug on the semester mid semster.
There is also the issue of whether a college can charge the same high tuition for an on-line experience. (Michigan State has already been sued for not just room and board, but also a tuition rebate. https://statenews.com/article/2020/...-demanding-tuition-room-board-and-fee-refunds Johns-Hopkins faces the same criticism even though it provided rebates on the room and board, but not tuition). https://www.baltimoresun.com/corona...0200405-xze7s7tkyzbg5azrmpg7j35r5m-story.html
U.Maryland is giving some tuition rebates. This is for last semester, where everyone was caught without informed decisions. What happens for next year, where everyone goes in with their eyes open about what the college is planning to charge for online only. The cost of that "rebate" vs. the ability to charge full whack is something each college will have to make based on its own supply and demand equasion, so Harvard and BC will have a different answer than Ferris State and Merrimack.

The BU contingency plan, which I'm sure every other school has considered, but not said out loud, is whether to push first semester to second semester, with second semester replaing summer school. That makes the most sense to buy some time without dealing with the "online" issue. There is at least a plausible chance of normalcy in January, and that way a school can earn the full tuition for two semi normal semesters.


If colleges can even get past those core financial issues, there is the issue of minimizing risk in a "normal" on-campus environment. I'm guessing having events for 4,000 people to gather is pretty low on that list. Especially if the revenue doesn't warrant the risk. So then, do you have events for on-line games, just for the sake of entertainment? And what happens if BU starts January 1, but Maine chooses to open first semster because they're a more rural school? Are they going to re-do the schedule on the fly?

If I'm a hockey coach, I'd expect not to play next year. We'll see them defer the kids, why waste a year at college if there are no, or minimal games? It's not that they'll get to play in the junior leagues, as those games are in jeopardy, too. I think it'll be limbo until 2021. I'm particularly attunded to these questions because I have two senior daughters (they're done with the new normal:eek:), and even they are considering a deferral for exactly these reasons, namely the on-line limits to education (they'd be in lab classes), and also the loss of the actual freshman experience. Because no colleges have publicly announced their plans/contingencies/costs, we'll be in the same limbo until August, and perhaps beyond.

But hockey in 2020-21? Highly doubtful. Colleges are fighting for survival, and hockey is item 2,343 on the list of priorities.
 
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Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

My NCAA Hockey Financials spreadsheet breaks down publicly available information for public (using NCAA financial reports) and private (using EADA reports) schools that have DI hockey programs. I breakout all the information for both the hockey programs and the overall athletic departments. If you look at the Yearly Overall tab you can see how much each school's athletic department reported in revenue and expenses and their overall and earned profit and losses. I have compiled the numbers for 2010 through 2018 and I'm just starting to work on the 2019 numbers (I don't have the latest OSU report from which numbers are reported in the above mentioned USA Today article). In general college athletics are large money drains.

Sean

That is an amazing spreadsheet! It looks like very few hockey programs turn a profit when institutional funding and student fees are stripped out.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Finances are only part of the answer, albeit an important part. The larger question for colleges is whether they can even house students first semester, or if they have to remain as on-line learning. No colleges have answered that yet, and for the major ones, the push of football revenue is a piece of that analysis -- but it still pales in comparison to the broader question of having an on-campus first semester (or year). Another aspect is the liability of allowing students back on, and then having an outbreak. The bills that Congress is considering now may shield that liability somewhat. Apart from the financial liability, there is a real concern about the health and safety of the students, and if there is an outbreak, potneially pulling the plug on the semester mid semster.
There is also the issue of whether a college can charge the same high tuition for an on-line experience. (Michigan State has already been sued for not just room and board, but also a tuition rebate. https://statenews.com/article/2020/...-demanding-tuition-room-board-and-fee-refunds Johns-Hopkins faces the same criticism even though it provided rebates on the room and board, but not tuition). https://www.baltimoresun.com/corona...0200405-xze7s7tkyzbg5azrmpg7j35r5m-story.html
U.Maryland is giving some tuition rebates. This is for last semester, where everyone was caught without informed decisions. What happens for next year, where everyone goes in with their eyes open about what the college is planning to charge for online only. The cost of that "rebate" vs. the ability to charge full whack is something each college will have to make based on its own supply and demand equasion, so Harvard and BC will have a different answer than Ferris State and Merrimack.

The BU contingency plan, which I'm sure every other school has considered, but not said out loud, is whether to push first semester to second semester, with second semester replaing summer school. That makes the most sense to buy some time without dealing with the "online" issue. There is at least a plausible chance of normalcy in January, and that way a school can earn the full tuition for two semi normal semesters.


If colleges can even get past those core financial issues, there is the issue of minimizing risk in a "normal" on-campus environment. I'm guessing having events for 4,000 people to gather is pretty low on that list. Especially if the revenue doesn't warrant the risk. So then, do you have events for on-line games, just for the sake of entertainment? And what happens if BU starts January 1, but Maine chooses to open first semster because they're a more rural school? Are they going to re-do the schedule on the fly?

If I'm a hockey coach, I'd expect not to play next year. We'll see them defer the kids, why waste a year at college if there are no, or minimal games? It's not that they'll get to play in the junior leagues, as those games are in jeopardy, too. I think it'll be limbo until 2021. I'm particularly attunded to these questions because I have two senior daughters (they're done with the new normal:eek:), and even they are considering a deferral for exactly these reasons, namely the on-line limits to education (they'd be in lab classes), and also the loss of the actual freshman experience. Because no colleges have publicly announced their plans/contingencies/costs, we'll be in the same limbo until August, and perhaps beyond.

But hockey in 2020-21? Highly doubtful. Colleges are fighting for survival, and hockey is item 2,343 on the list of priorities.

Its not only a concern for students but for the professors, staff and administration that operate schools. Barring a widely effective treatment or vaccine, I can't imagine a 65 year old physics professor at RPI wanting to wade into the viral melange of 7,500 co-eds on campus...especially when young people are known to be largely asymptomatic carriers.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Everyone is taking a hit...not just sports. 2020 into 2021 could be very scary...health wise and in the pocket book.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

That is an amazing spreadsheet! It looks like very few hockey programs turn a profit when institutional funding and student fees are stripped out.
Thanks. Some apparently don't think much of it since, as Bonin21 states, NCAA finances are "wacky." I prefer to use the old chestnut, "creative accounting," but it seems that every few years the NCAA tamps down to try and get apples-to-apples comparisons (even if it is a Granny Smith to Macintosh comparison) vs apples-to-oranges. Still Bonin21 is correct that North Dakota doesn't report the contributions required to the Fighting Hawk fund for the right to buy hockey season tickets as contributions of the hockey program, but as contributions to the general athletic program. Obviously that money should be shown under hockey and it is probably most of the just over $4 million reported for 2018 to general athletics, but UND is an outlier on how they report contributions. What can be seen is that in general athletics loses money for almost every school, but most consider them am important part of the college experience.

Sean
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

"Opportunities to find deeper powers within ourselves come when life seems most challenging." - Joseph Campbell.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Germany just cancelled October fest and they are managing the country response better than we are, more testing fewer deaths. They are also allowing small shops to open so there are some contradictions. Still October fest is pretty big, tremendous chance to drink beer, eat sausage and with an official license to be drunk in public. A much bigger St. Pat's Day.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

Michigan, Ohio state, Notre Dame fund there entire athletic budget from football. If there is no football, there is no money. The Millions$ that these schools bring in will make it impossible to fund all of there remaining sports.

There's already been talk about pushing football to spring.

----

My private hope is that things could get better sooner... but now that everybody wants to push back into society, understandibly, i think we're not going to be able to stop this virus any time soon. What I was hoping is they could push all of this spring's sports into the fall with college baseball starting say end of June. Sure, it'd be total havoc with some sports that share fields... lax and soccer... but it seemed plausible to me.

----

Still a lot to happen.
 
Re: Will there be hockey in the fall? Will we have to wait until after Jan 1

How many students — regular students, not athletes — are going to decide to take a gap year instead of dealing with all the academic uncertainty? Thus, reducing even further the revenue coming into colleges.
 
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