WCHA Thread III

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Flygh wouldn't have reacted the same way to that time out ...

Or maybe the time out would never have been taken. If one doesn't respect a former assistant enough not to make his team wait through a meaningless last-minute timeout, then I'm not sure who would be worthy of that respect. Because as wrong as Means was -- and I totally agree that he was dead wrong -- there is nothing said during such a timeout that couldn't have waited to be said in the locker room a minute later.

 

[skatefast]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Or maybe the time out would never have been taken. If one doesn't respect a former assistant enough not to make his team wait through a meaningless last-minute timeout, then I'm not sure who would be worthy of that respect. Because as wrong as Means was -- and I totally agree that he was dead wrong -- there is nothing said during such a timeout that couldn't have waited to be said in the locker room a minute later.

If you agree that he was dead wrong, then no other conversation about who was wrong or right can be part of the conversation. If it was any other coach that took the time out, it wouldn't even be a factor. Not to mention, none of us, NONE of us, have any idea why that time out was taken.

Cali- Means was suspended after ordering (admittedly) his top player to take out a UMD player in the final seconds. The results were his player, Smith, taking out two players in dangerous hits at the buzzer.

 

[Cali]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Cali- Means was suspended after ordering (admittedly) his top player to take out a UMD player in the final seconds. The results were his player, Smith, taking out two players in dangerous hits at the buzzer.

Thanks. If you ask me, he is darn lucky he still has a job. Hopefully he is on a real short leash going forward

 

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

If you agree that he was dead wrong, then no other conversation about who was wrong or right can be part of the conversation. If it was any other coach that took the time out, it wouldn't even be a factor.

I don't agree with your first statement. Two drivers pull up to a four-way stop. Driver A arrives first. Driver B does a rolling stop and beats Driver A into the intersection. Driver A rams the other driver intentionally. Driver A is way, way out of line. That doesn't mean we can't admit that Driver B may have been a little out of line as well, although obviously, to an entirely different degree. As for your second statement, I don't agree with that either. If Means had called time out with 45 seconds to go while up 3, I'd have thought, "That's kind of bush league." Granted, nickel/dime stuff, and nowhere of the severity of encouraging players to take runs at others in an intent to injure. Even in the National Football League, that line isn't condoned.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

If it was any other coach that took the time out, it wouldn't even be a factor. Not to mention, none of us, NONE of us, have any idea why that time out was taken.

I'm gonna have to disagree with this...believing the reaction would be the same regardless of any distinction per coach / individual. Not that I believe for a minute any other WCHA coach would call for that timeout under identical circumstances.

Others are far less confused about the reason for the timeout.

 

[taz91]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Let me get this straight. You're up 4 to 1 with under a minute left in the game. You decide to take a timeout and put out your top line despite the game being over considering how weak Mankato is offensively. Nobody else sees anything else wrong with this? I don't disagree that Means deserved to get suspended because of the potential of injury for both Irwin and Cournoyer. There was no reason for that timeout to be taken. If the timeout is taken and any other line is put out by Coach Miller, I don't think we're having this discussion. Because she rolls that line out, I take it as she is trying to run the score up. I remember reading that Irwin was near some milestone. You still had one more game to reach it, you don't need to do it with :42 seconds left in a 4-1 game. To be perfectly honest, I wouldn't have been surprised if something would've happened without Means' prompting. Go ahead UMD fans, lynch me. What's the saying, two wrongs don't make a right?

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Let me get this straight. You're up 4 to 1 with under a minute left in the game. You decide to take a timeout and put out your top line despite the game being over considering how weak Mankato is offensively. Nobody else sees anything else wrong with this?

I do. Though it came as no surprise to me at the time.

 

[skatefast]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Thanks. If you ask me, he is darn lucky he still has a job. Hopefully he is on a real short leash going forward

Agreed. Yet the discussion is to point the finger in the other direction. I guess if you have a daughter/ loved one that's at risk of getting hit, perhaps you see the issue for what it is.

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I guess coaches are supposed to work out their game strategies based on the likelihood that they might hurt the opposing coach's feelings. Who cares if she called a timeout or when? Is there something in the rules that says a coach can't use a timeout if there's only X amount of time on the clock or a team is X points ahead of the other team? Yes, the game was in the bag. And yes, UMD's top player was one goal away from a career milestone. If it hadn't occurred to Means that Haley Irwin would stay on the ice until the end of the game to try to get that special goal, he was the only one in the building who didn't know. So boo hoo, and yes it's all about Shannon Miller and we all know it. So have at it, get it out of your system and then lets talk about a coach who instructs his players to intentionally injure opposing players.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I guess coaches are supposed to work out their game strategies based on the likelihood that they might hurt the opposing coach's feelings. Who cares if she called a timeout or when?

Basically, everyone who understands, believes in and practices good sportsmanship. That's never applied to Shannon Miller.

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Let's see...she's got a 334-101-35 record at UMD, five national championships, eleven Frozen Four wins, 15 national tournament wins, nine NCAA playoffs, six Frozen Fours, four WCHA regular season titles, five WCHA playoff titles, an Olympic silver medal (1998), three world championships, two Pacific Rim championships and a Three Nations Cup championship. She's coached 12 first team All-Americans, 14 Patty Kazmaier finalists, three WCHA Players of the Year, three WCHA Student Athletes of the Year, one CoSIDA Academic All-American and 22 Olympians. And worst of all, she's a girl.

But you're right. I'm sure she hasn't learned a thing about sportsmanship along the way.

 

[Cali]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I guess coaches are supposed to work out their game strategies based on the likelihood that they might hurt the opposing coach's feelings. Who cares if she called a timeout or when? Is there something in the rules that says a coach can't use a timeout if there's only X amount of time on the clock or a team is X points ahead of the other team? Yes, the game was in the bag. And yes, UMD's top player was one goal away from a career milestone. If it hadn't occurred to Means that Haley Irwin would stay on the ice until the end of the game to try to get that special goal, he was the only one in the building who didn't know. So boo hoo, and yes it's all about Shannon Miller and we all know it. So have at it, get it out of your system and then lets talk about a coach who instructs his players to intentionally injure opposing players.

Trying to wade in here, Means was out of line end of story. Whatever the reason was that Miller called a time out, it doesn't open the door for Means to issue an edict to his players. Miller can do whatever she wants during a time out. She can tell a joke, she can drop a fart bomb to her players who are huddling up, she can set up a play to try to get Irwin her milestone goal. It is irrelevant what her motives were for calling the timeout. Means apparantly formulated his own reason for her calling this timeout and, like a petulant child, decided to take out some revenge. His only instructions should have been "don't let Irwin get her milestone goal".

Cali

 

[WCHFan]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Trying to wade in here, Means was out of line end of story. Whatever the reason was that Miller called a time out, it doesn't open the door for Means to issue an edict to his players. Miller can do whatever she wants during a time out. She can tell a joke, she can drop a fart bomb to her players who are huddling up, she can set up a play to try to get Irwin her milestone goal. It is irrelevant what her motives were for calling the timeout. Means apparantly formulated his own reason for her calling this timeout and, like a petulant child, decided to take out some revenge. His only instructions should have been "don't let Irwin get her milestone goal".

Cali

Well said.

As far as sportsmanship? I feel a coach needs to do what ever they feel is best for the team. If her players were wanting this i see nothing wrong with it. My daughter team has lost a couple games by large scores and although it's hard to watch I would never complain that the coach should have let up. UND pours it on and continues to play the twins during lopsided games as do the the Gophers and Frost. Work harder and pay the team back another game. Play everyone yes. Let up never.

I'm not even close to being a UMD fan and must be honest don't care to much for Miller. But I will admit I feel she is a great coach that knows how to make adjustments, has set plays which every team should do and her players are ready to give everything they have most games. They play there arshes off.

Means in my opinion if this is all correct should be terminated. there is NO place for this in any game. If it were my daughter he chose to hurt? I think I might have to make him know he made a serious mistake. A threat (maybe) I would NEVER allow my daughter to play for someone like him. Has to hurt recruiting.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Let's see...she's got a 334-101-35 record at UMD, five national championships, eleven Frozen Four wins, 15 national tournament wins, nine NCAA playoffs, six Frozen Fours, four WCHA regular season titles, five WCHA playoff titles, an Olympic silver medal (1998), three world championships, two Pacific Rim championships and a Three Nations Cup championship. She's coached 12 first team All-Americans, 14 Patty Kazmaier finalists, three WCHA Players of the Year, three WCHA Student Athletes of the Year, one CoSIDA Academic All-American and 22 Olympians. And worst of all, she's a girl.

But you're right. I'm sure she hasn't learned a thing about sportsmanship along the way.

Nothing at all to do with success as a coach, or gender... ? Huh? Several fairly notorious past incidents that do indicate a lack of sportsmanship, and general unprofessional behavior from coach Miller. That's not the issue today, but it's no secret. It's about actions and behavior. Woody Hayes was a very successful coach.

What a coach can do and what a coach should do are completely different. A coach can do anything they want. Doesn't mean they should with no consideration to sportsmanship. I'm not defending the actions of Eric Means. I do not agree that a motive for a timeout under these circumstances is irrelevant, especially to the opponent, nor particularly mysterious in this case. I wouldn't agree that Means reached an incorrect or somehow inventive conclusion as to a motive for the timeout. I also wouldn't agree with his response, obviously.

But you're right. I'm sure she hasn't learned a thing about sportsmanship along the way.

It would appear. Just as it would appear there are contrary concepts of sportsmanship and opposing points of view regarding the importance of good sportsmanship among those weighing in.

 

[Shootin Muffins]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I will wade in this.. Complete busch league to call a timeout being up 4-1 having the game in hand and then sending out your top line. Sportsmanship, integrity of the game and respected your opponents are of higher importanct than a players or coaches accollates. Coach Miller doesn't call a timeout this is a non issue. This type of garbage has been going on the womens side for way too long. When is the last time a NHL or Div I Men's coach called a time out with under a minute left in game while leaading 4-1 and then send out your top line. Come on. And i am sick to my stomach that the easy way out is that people will claim its Womens Hockey. BS... Its HOCKEY!!

I am not condoning what Coach Means did or said but Coach Miller had it coming. Even if coach Means doesn't say a peep during the timeout the players know what is going on. I am sure most of them were like what the heck is going on! Its complete Busch League and i am willing to bet Coach Miller will think twice about putting out her top line in the final minute of the game.

 

[Cali]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I will wade in this.. Complete busch league to call a timeout being up 4-1 having the game in hand and then sending out your top line. Sportsmanship, integrity of the game and respected your opponents are of higher importanct than a players or coaches accollates. Coach Miller doesn't call a timeout this is a non issue. This type of garbage has been going on the womens side for way too long. When is the last time a NHL or Div I Men's coach called a time out with under a minute left in game while leaading 4-1 and then send out your top line. Come on. And i am sick to my stomach that the easy way out is that people will claim its Womens Hockey. BS... Its HOCKEY!!

I am not condoning what Coach Means did or said but Coach Miller had it coming. Even if coach Means doesn't say a peep during the timeout the players know what is going on. I am sure most of them were like what the heck is going on! Its complete Busch League and i am willing to bet Coach Miller will think twice about putting out her top line in the final minute of the game.

You say that you are not condoning Means's actions but you state that it never would have happened if Miller hadn't called a timeout, effectively laying the blame with Miller. That is so wrong. It is akin to saying that, hypothetically (and I'll use a harsh example), a women would not have been raped if she hadn't dressed so provocatively.

We can't rationalize our own actions as being acceptable because we were reacting to someone elses action which we, through our own morale compass, believe were wrong. That is blame-shifting and I repeat, it is wrong. If that is the case, who's to say that Miller wasn't doing something as a retaliation to a previous incident between Means and Miller. Perhaps her calling a timeout and going for one more goal was completely warranted in her eyes. If that is the case, when does it end.

Means's actions were completely out of line and he was punished.

 

[JosephPSchmoe]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I am not condoning what Coach Means did or said but Coach Miller had it coming.

Coach Miller wasn't the one laid out on the ice by an opposing player. That was Haley Irwin and Audrey Cournoyer. Or did they have it coming, too?

 

[Shootin Muffins]

Re: WCHA Thread III

You say that you are not condoning Means's actions but you state that it never would have happened if Miller hadn't called a timeout, effectively laying the blame with Miller. That is so wrong. It is akin to saying that, hypothetically (and I'll use a harsh example), a women would not have been raped if she hadn't dressed so provocatively.

We can't rationalize our own actions as being acceptable because we were reacting to someone elses action which we, through our own morale compass, believe were wrong. That is blame-shifting and I repeat, it is wrong. If that is the case, who's to say that Miller wasn't doing something as a retaliation to a previous incident between Means and Miller. Perhaps her calling a timeout and going for one more goal was completely warranted in her eyes. If that is the case, when does it end.

Means's actions were completely out of line and he was punished.

Obviously you didn't read the part where i said i do not condone Coach Means words or actions. Yes they were wrong and he got penalized for it! However, i would never condone coach Miller's actions either. In my eyes they are both unacceptable and i am willing to bet with overwhelming support that 98% coaches in the WCHA would say that Coach Miller was in the wrong as well. Written rule or not have some freakin respect! I am willing to bet that this not Coach Millers first time pulling something busch league like this. And bet their are few other coaches around the league that probably are grinning because they are sick of it!

Like i said before when is the last time you saw Men's Div. I , NHL or a Junior Coach call a timeout with under minute left when your up 4-1, put out your top line and the game is sailing along smoothly.. What a joke!!

 

[Shootin Muffins]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Coach Miller wasn't the one laid out on the ice by an opposing player. That was Haley Irwin and Audrey Cournoyer. Or did they have it coming, too?

Well don't put out your top stars out the final minute of a game when your up 4-1. Or too make matter worse call a dam time out!! If you can't see the wrong in that then you obviously never played and coached the game of hockey! Was it wrong and do i feel bad the two gals got their bells rang yes. At some point something has got to give because sending out star players when games are out hand just to pad their stats has been going on way to long on the womens side!

 

[Cali]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Obviously you didn't read the part where i said i do not condone Coach Means words or actions.

I guess you didn't read the very first sentence of my post, did you. We get it, you are a proponent of vigilante justice. Make sure you kiss your Don Cherry bobblehead before you go to bed.