WCHA Thread III

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I would have to agree with the numbers. You look at players like Callie Dahl at SCSU. She was a finalist for Ms Hockey and in my opinion has disappeared with the Huskies. At Mankato you have the big 3 from South St Paul. Once Nelson moved to St Cloud she put some very nice numbers up, but they couldn't do it together.

The SSP trio hardly played together at all after high school due to injury and ah...other stuff. I think they might have done better than they ultimately did had circumstances kept them together throughout their college career.

I'll send you a note in private regarding some of your other observations.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I agree with you except I would put a little differently. I think 20-30 have the tools but only 5-10 are virtually can't miss players. The next 10-20 players have the tools but need to be in the right program with the right coach to be successful.

When I asked my initial question about the overall impact of the "exodus" on the likes of SCSU, MSU and BSU I wasn't really attempting to discern quantities of "can't miss" players vs. another group that "just" have the tools but require the perfect situation in order to excel...or at least have an impact for their team. That's a different discussion and to be honest, one I try to avoid due to the volatility on the topic I've experienced in the past. I know you didn't refer to any specific players but that's where similar discussions have gone in the past with unfortunate results of individual players being publicly disparaged. I know you weren't going there...and I don't want to go there.

I'm not sure about the 5-10 can't miss assessment. I lose track of the exploits of those players who head to points East, so I don't know how many actually turn out to be can't miss. Even so, I think those with the tools but outside the can't miss group are choosing programs outside the WCHA and definitely contributing to the success of their teams, as I believe they would for the Minnesota based programs. Some of them anyway.

When somebody like Curtis chooses UNH, then that likely represents a hit in quality to the collective rosters of teams like MSU, BSU, and SCSU. They can fill with another player, but will she have equivalent talent?

And there's the crux. Exactly the question I was asking to begin with. And possibly subsequently their ability to improve their results within the conference?

May even be premature to label it a "trend." Maybe nothing more than some down years in recruiting by the WCHA programs in question. Have to give it a little time and see if the Mavericks, Beavers and Huskies have better recruiting luck at home in the future.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: WCHA Thread III

When I asked my initial question about the overall impact of the "exodus" on the likes of SCSU, MSU and BSU I wasn't really attempting to discern quantities of "can't miss" players vs. another group that "just" have the tools but require the perfect situation in order to excel...or at least have an impact for their team. That's a different discussion and to be honest, one I try to avoid due to the volatility on the topic I've experienced in the past. I know you didn't refer to any specific players but that's where similar discussions have gone in the past with unfortunate results of individual players being publicly disparaged. I know you weren't going there...and I don't want to go there.

I'm not sure about the 5-10 can't miss assessment. I lose track of the exploits of those players who head to points East, so I don't know how many actually turn out to be can't miss. Even so, I think those with the tools but outside the can't miss group are choosing programs outside the WCHA and definitely contributing to the success of their teams, as I believe they would for the Minnesota based programs. Some of them anyway.


And there's the crux. Exactly the question I was asking to begin with. And possibly subsequently their ability to improve their results within the conference?

May even be premature to label it a "trend." Maybe nothing more than some down years in recruiting by the WCHA programs in question. Have to give it a little time and see if the Mavericks, Beavers and Huskies have better recruiting luck at home in the future.

I don't want to discuss specific players but my reason for the discussion about "Top Players" is that I don't think the Top Player label is clear cut. I think there's a lot of talent out there and a top player to one coach is not a top player to another coach except for a very small subset of 5 or so of 30 or so players. With that logic I was questioning whether or not Minnesota based programs are really missing out on the top players. I just think the success of the Minnesota based programs is more about picking the "right players", which are players that fit their program so the team can be successful and will make the transition to the next level and its not really as much about "top players" going out East. I guess an over used example is Herb Brooks and the miracle team. Did he pick the best top players or the right players to form a cohesive winning team? Yes more and more girls are going out East. Its easier to go out East when girls know others out there. The girls hockey community is very small and they all seem to know each other. I also think that more are going out East because there are more girls capable of playing D1 today than in the past and the Eastern schools are benefiting from the larger numbers. But more than anything I think its about the total package that influences girls' choices. The quality of school, the coach, the atmosphere, the cost, etc.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I don't want to discuss specific players but my reason for the discussion about "Top Players" is that I don't think the Top Player label is clear cut. I think there's a lot of talent out there and a top player to one coach is not a top player to another coach except for a very small subset of 5 or so of 30 or so players. With that logic I was questioning whether or not Minnesota based programs are really missing out on the top players. I just think the success of the Minnesota based programs is more about picking the "right players", which are players that fit their program so the team can be successful and will make the transition to the next level and its not really as much about "top players" going out East. I guess an over used example is Herb Brooks and the miracle team. Did he pick the best top players or the right players to form a cohesive winning team? Yes more and more girls are going out East. Its easier to go out East when girls know others out there. The girls hockey community is very small and they all seem to know each other. I also think that more are going out East because there are more girls capable of playing D1 today than in the past and the Eastern schools are benefiting from the larger numbers. But more than anything I think its about the total package that influences girls' choices. The quality of school, the coach, the atmosphere, the cost, etc.

I guess I believe several of those "top players" if that's an objectionable label, are also some of the "right players" all wrapped into one, that could be integral pieces of a hypothetical cohesive Maverick, Husky or Beaver team that might fare better than they typically do in WCHA conference competition...if those programs were more successful in recruiting them. Which is all I'm trying to say, to imply my theory that the growing trend is impacting their success to some degree. I'm aware that no team, or one conference is going to recruit ALL the top...or "right" players. Individual players have such varied priorities...too many for that to ever happen. I understand there are many varied, personal priorities and reasons a player chooses an Eastern program. It's all good. Good reasons and good / smart choices...since only a very few end up transferring out of their initial choice. I don't know how much or little weight you give to the affect that increasing numbers of solid D-I players ultimately playing in the East has on the Minnesota based programs, when you say it's not really as much about that. It just sounds like we have a difference of opinion on that matter with me thinking the "trend", which could be another questionable label, has had a little more impact on the likes of MSU and SCSU etc. Put another way, I think quite a few Minnesota kids that have gone outside the WCHA could / would have been the "right" player to add to a MSU, BSU or SCSU roster and improved the team. It's all slightly moot when those Minnesota based programs and schools apparently don't have what these players are looking for in a team, staff, education, location...or whatever.

 

[SCSU2039]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I would have to agree with the numbers. You look at players like Callie Dahl at SCSU. She was a finalist for Ms Hockey and in my opinion has disappeared with the Huskies.

To be completely fair to Callie Dahl, she did miss the bulk of last year because of injury. Not that I think she hasn't underperformed, but you have to take that into consideration as to why she has disappeared to a point.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I guess I believe several of those "top players" if that's an objectionable label, are also some of the "right players" all wrapped into one, that could be integral pieces of a hypothetical cohesive Maverick, Husky or Beaver team that might fare better than they typically do in WCHA conference competition...if those programs were more successful in recruiting them. Which is all I'm trying to say, to imply my theory that the growing trend is impacting their success to some degree. I'm aware that no team, or one conference is going to recruit ALL the top...or "right" players. Individual players have such varied priorities...too many for that to ever happen. I understand there are many varied, personal priorities and reasons a player chooses an Eastern program. It's all good. Good reasons and good / smart choices...since only a very few end up transferring out of their initial choice. I don't know how much or little weight you give to the affect that increasing numbers of solid D-I players ultimately playing in the East has on the Minnesota based programs, when you say it's not really as much about that. It just sounds like we have a difference of opinion on that matter with me thinking the "trend", which could be another questionable label, has had a little more impact on the likes of MSU and SCSU etc. Put another way, I think quite a few Minnesota kids that have gone outside the WCHA could / would have been the "right" player to add to a MSU, BSU or SCSU roster and improved the team. It's all slightly moot when those Minnesota based programs and schools apparently don't have what these players are looking for in a team, staff, education, location...or whatever.

I get what you are saying. I'm just saying that there are enough good players out there to build good teams regardless of players going out East. Its a good discussion though.

 

[taz91]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I get what you are saying. I'm just saying that there are enough good players out there to build good teams regardless of players going out East. Its a good discussion though.

I can see where both of you are coming from. Let me turn this around to the players side. If you are a top player in Minnesota, would you rather go to a school like Harvard or BC that are typically in NCAA contention or MSU or SCSU that are bottom feeders. A lot of these players are coming from winning traditions. I think the Minnesota schools are putting in the effort for those players but they would rather go where there is a tradition, not start a tradition. MSU tried with "the line" from South St Paul, but injury and off ice situations crushed that.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Let me turn this around to the players side. If you are a top player in Minnesota, would you rather go to a school like Harvard or BC that are typically in NCAA contention or MSU or SCSU that are bottom feeders. A lot of these players are coming from winning traditions.

I'm sure that's a consideration for many. Everyone wants to win...winning makes it more fun. There's an example or two I know of with players transferring out of program(s) in the East because they got tired of never winning.

I think the Minnesota schools are putting in the effort for those players but they would rather go where there is a tradition, not start a tradition. MSU tried with "the line" from South St Paul, but injury and off ice situations crushed that.

The Mavericks have had a fair number of above average Minnesota kids in the program. Lee, Buganski, Altmann, Thunder, Russo, Nichols...though I think she left early, and now Smith. I'm sure I'm forgetting many more. They've also had some good Europeans and Canadians...though at least one of them transferred out as well. I guess I've expected better from some of those teams than what they actually achieved on the ice.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I can see where both of you are coming from. Let me turn this around to the players side. If you are a top player in Minnesota, would you rather go to a school like Harvard or BC that are typically in NCAA contention or MSU or SCSU that are bottom feeders. A lot of these players are coming from winning traditions. I think the Minnesota schools are putting in the effort for those players but they would rather go where there is a tradition, not start a tradition. MSU tried with "the line" from South St Paul, but injury and off ice situations crushed that.

Another question from the player/parent side is for the serious student/athlete. Would they rather go to any of those programs (or even others that have successful hockey programs but middle of the road academic programs) or go to Yale, Brown, Union, etc. Programs that haven't been successful in hockey but have outstanding academic reputations. Not everyone is picking a school based on hockey alone.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Another question from the player/parent side is for the serious student/athlete. Would they rather go to any of those programs (or even others that have successful hockey programs but middle of the road academic programs) or go to Yale, Brown, Union, etc. Programs that haven't been successful in hockey but have outstanding academic reputations. Not everyone is picking a school based on hockey alone.

Agree. If you've got the skill, take the reward, if it fits.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Couldn't find the old North Dakota thread after a brief search...so

http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/126095118.html

Potentially more damaging is the reaction from the Big Sky Conference, which UND hopes to join next year, which has said the issue will complicate the school's conference membership and some schools might refuse to schedule games against UND. Some believe that would lead to a broad decline in its athletic program.

I think any administration of a Big Sky Conference member blackballing UND over this issue would qualify as a bunch of effen wieners IMO. Pardon my bluntness.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6_o4LHIQs-0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Does this ump moonlight as a WCHA official?

 

[beaverhockeyfan]

Re: WCHA Thread III

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6_o4LHIQs-0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Does this ump moonlight as a WCHA official?

It is hard to tell if his swipe hit the runner's shin or not. The glove definitely did not hit the runner's arm or upper body. I am thinking the ump may have got this on right, even though in pro baseball, it seems to be an automatic out when the throw beats you by this much, whether the play is made or not.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

It is hard to tell if his swipe hit the runner's shin or not.

I think he was out...with the catcher's mitt getting the runner near the knee. If the catcher missed the tag he should get two for embellishment.

 

[taz91]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I think I heard '3 Blind Mice' playing in the background. I don't know how the catcher could have missed the tag or the runner avoided it. For how close the sweep tag was, I don't know how the umpire could've made that call. Boy, how many times have I said that about WCHA refs?

 

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I am thinking the ump may have got this on right ...

Even the ump himself disagrees with you. That's probably how the automatic out call has evolved over the years, because the ump looks pretty bad when he gets it wrong when the ball beats the runner by this much.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

http://www.stcloudstate.edu/athleti...tory.asp?pubID=37&issueID=30914&storyID=35962

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

So the Huskies have new additions to the coaching staff. Minnesota plays St. Cloud early in the coming season. I have a feeling after a season like they had in 2010-2011, the Huskies come out of the gate very motivated and determined to turn things around. Don't know if they'll find the scoring they'll need but I'd be expecting a strong effort out of the gate from the Huskies and definitely have that in mind and be prepared if I were an opponent.

 

[DC78-82]

Re: WCHA Thread III

So the Huskies have new additions to the coaching staff. Minnesota plays St. Cloud early in the coming season. I have a feeling after a season like they had in 2010-2011, the Huskies come out of the gate very motivated and determined to turn things around. Don't know if they'll find the scoring they'll need but I'd be expecting a strong effort out of the gate from the Huskies and definitely have that in mind and be prepared if I were an opponent.

One has to wonder if there might not be a lamp lighting transfer or two from Wayne State showing up in St. Cloud?

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

One has to wonder if there might not be a lamp lighting transfer or two from Wayne State showing up in St. Cloud?

Think I read there was at least one...but I'm completely unfamiliar with Wayne State players. It would obviously be a large benefit for St. Cloud. It's an area the Huskies could use some improvement in.