WCHA Thread III

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I guess us old guys are a little more respectful of the past but I tend to agree with Granddaddyscout--until they are knocked off and with the number of returning players, less a major one ,I tend to lean toward Wisco ...

That is true, particularly in the case of the NCAA title. Coach Johnson has had the Badgers in the championship game in each of his last 5 seasons, so that discusssion has to start with UW. In the case of the WCHA regular season, I'm not as sure. The three times Wisconsin has taken that crown, they have done so by wide margins. I don't expect Wisco' to dominate the league this year like the previous.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

The 2011-2012 BSU Beavers roster, verifying the transfer of King from Maine.

http://www.bsubeavers.com/whockey/roster/

 

[WCHFan]

Re: WCHA Thread III

The 2011-2012 BSU Beavers roster, verifying the transfer of King from Maine.

http://www.bsubeavers.com/whockey/roster/

I think they need to add a few more players I don't understand teams that carry so many. Crazy in my opinion. I'm terrible in math but I count 9 D, 13 F and 3 D/F.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I think they need to add a few more players I don't understand teams that carry so many. Crazy in my opinion. I'm terrible in math but I count 9 D, 13 F and 3 D/F.

I've gotten used to seeing several Beavers at the rink but not dressed to play.

 

[WCHFan]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I'm sure there will be red shirts but c'mon. I thought there was a money issue in college sports.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

In an "I'll say it if you won't" frame of mind...and at the risk of misinterpretation that could probably upset some forum readers and fans of women's college hockey...or rub them the wrong way at the least. If one looks at the commitment threads for either / both of the 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 classes, the trend of top players from Minnesota choosing to attend and continue their hockey careers at HE and ECAC schools seems to be accelerating...or becoming increasingly common with each successive class. Before someone thinks I'm representing this trend as a negative let me say I'm not. It's great these kids are being recruited and securing roster spots at the fine universities of HE and the ECAC.

The reason I'm posting this in the WCHA thread is to address any perceived, or real impact this trend has, or is having on the competitive fortunes of Minnesota located WCHA programs like SCSU, MSU-M and BSU. It seems not too long ago all of these programs used to be a good deal more successful at recruiting top talent within the state. Obviously recruiting is extremely competitive. All three programs mentioned are very likely not going to get a lot of looks from the top players out of Canada. At least that would appear to be true if their history is any indication. Which in the past has made it pretty much imperative they recruit their share of talented locals in order to be at all competitive with the WCHA powers. It seems in most recent years that just isn't getting done in numbers significant enough to make headway towards better results in the conference. Simply put, it just seems like the Minnesota based WCHA programs are getting beat up...or beat out pretty consistently by HE and ECAC schools when it comes to local kids and it is affecting the chances for upward mobility within the conference.

Interested on whether or not anyone thinks it is a factor and adversely affecting the BSU, MSU and SCSU programs.

If you don't mind, spare me the "superior education" theories. While I'm sure it's a factor for some in their decision, I've heard that one enough times and don't believe it's the sole cause of the trend...or even buy it personally. Looking for any other possible reasons the Husky, Maverick and Beaver staffs are losing the recruiting battles at home, so often.

 

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Interested on whether or not anyone thinks it is a factor and adversely affecting the BSU, MSU and SCSU programs.

I wouldn't lump BSU in with the other two, because I think Bemidji is improving. They took UND, by most measures a top-10 team, to the limit in their best-of-three playoff, so I don't know that their "competitive fortunes" as you phrased it have been that compromised.

The Beav's class for the coming season includes:

Bemidji State
Kayleigh Chapman .....................D ..............(Warner Warriors) ...................................Virden, MB
Alex Citrowske ...........................F ....................(Prior Lake) .....................................Savage, MN
Rachel Kelly ...............................F ....................(Rosemont) .................................Rosemont, MN
Natasha Kostenko .................... F ..............(Notre Dame Hounds) .........................Fannystelle, MB
Tegan Rose ..............................D ...............(Edmonton Chimos) ...............................Gibbons, AB
Whitney Wivoda .......................F ..............(Minnesota Crunch) ..............................Fairbanks, AK

I'm not familiar with any of these beyond Kelly, so I can't say whether this is a weaker group then they've typically brought in from state HS teams. Once we get a look at BSU on the ice, it will be easier to judge how they are positioned for the future.

 

[CanHockGuy]

Re: WCHA Thread III

They want to go away for their college experience, not stay where they've been their whole lives.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I wouldn't lump BSU in with the other two, because I think Bemidji is improving. They took UND, by most measures a top-10 team, to the limit in their best-of-three playoff, so I don't know that their "competitive fortunes" as you phrased it have been that compromised.

The Beav's class for the coming season includes:

Bemidji State
Kayleigh Chapman .....................D ..............(Warner Warriors) ...................................Virden, MB
Alex Citrowske ...........................F ....................(Prior Lake) .....................................Savage, MN
Rachel Kelly ...............................F ....................(Rosemont) .................................Rosemont, MN
Natasha Kostenko .................... F ..............(Notre Dame Hounds) .........................Fannystelle, MB
Tegan Rose ..............................D ...............(Edmonton Chimos) ...............................Gibbons, AB
Whitney Wivoda .......................F ..............(Minnesota Crunch) ..............................Fairbanks, AK

I'm not familiar with any of these beyond Kelly, so I can't say whether this is a weaker group then they've typically brought in from state HS teams. Once we get a look at BSU on the ice, it will be easier to judge how they are positioned for the future.

We'll see. Myself, I don't see BSU matching the success or record they achieved in 2010-2011.

Bemidji is probably not the easiest sell to many top players out of Minnesota high school...perhaps with challenges greater than SCSU or MSU staff have. The Beavers have clearly improved under the direction of coach Sertich, but with two Minnesota kids in the current class I think it's fair to lump them with SCSU and MSU when talking about landing...or not landing talented kids from within the state. There is that Roseville connection and some pretty good talent at Roseville that could change that pretty quickly. Not to imply the Beavers don't have some quality Minnesota kids now and haven't in the past. They do, and they have.

 

[taz91]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Could it also be players are heading out East to play with players or for coaches they've met through the various National Team Development Programs? Katy Stone at Harvard seems to add a lot of talent from Minnesota and is big in the development program. How much influence do you think Schaus and Stack had in a player like Allie Thunstrom going to BC instead of stay home? I know you hear that a lot in basketball. The kids are meeting at AAU level camps and wanting to play together in college...could be the pay at the D-1 men's basketball level too. See Kentucky men's hoops. ARM, I will give you BSU moving up the ranks, but we will see in 2012-13 after Tomcikova graduates. Are they that good of a team, or does she make them that good? When Shari Vogt was at Mankato, she made them look a lot better than they were. I think the three Minnesota state schools are relegated to starting at player #21 in the state and going from there for recruiting.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I think the three Minnesota state schools are relegated to starting at player #21 in the state and going from there for recruiting.

This I would consider a concise, valid point. Yet both SCSU and MSU have done better than that in the past.

Could it also be players are heading out East to play with players or for coaches they've met through the various National Team Development Programs? Katy Stone at Harvard seems to add a lot of talent from Minnesota and is big in the development program.

Ditto this observation as well. I'm sure it's been a factor for quite a few who've headed to HE and the ECAC.

 

[Still A Game]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I would submit that, MSU, BSU, and St Cloud, are not aggressively recruiting most of the players that are ending up headed east. The are however, being aggressively recruited by the eastern schools and the players are taking those opportunities that are presented them. I can't say whether MSU, BSU, or St Cloud are just not interested, or just too slow. Many of those currently involved in the process are surprised by the lack of interest from these schools. It just seems that few Minnesota prospects are currently meeting the expectations of these schools, and the ones that do are being snapped up early by the U of M and UND.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I would submit that, MSU, BSU, and St Cloud, are not aggressively recruiting most of the players that are ending up headed east. I can't say whether MSU, BSU, or St Cloud are just not interested, or just too slow. Many of those currently involved in the process are surprised by the lack of interest from these schools. It just seems that few Minnesota prospects are currently meeting the expectations of these schools, and the ones that do are being snapped up early by the U of M and UND.

If that's true, and it may very well be as it's a little hard for me to believe there is such a relative few top players being successfully recruited by SCSU or MSU. Both of whom have had strong classes comprised of Minnesota kids in the past. So It made me wonder why the programs seem to have become such a hard sell to the local kid. A Husky fan mentioned awhile ago that talent assessment is a problem with their current staff, when they were discussing the Huskies dreadful 2010-2011 season. Have to give them some credit for Miss Hanmer though I think. I think she's among the top players in her class...so they done good there. Also, if what you say is true then responsibility rests with the staffs and they need to show more interest, sooner, and be more aggressive to be more successful with recruiting in their backyards. After all...that's where the buck stops regarding recruiting. Staff has to get it done. Otherwise I think they continue to finish at or near the bottom of the conference behind UND and OSU pretty consistently. BSU may do better than that, but like taz mentioned, I think Tomcikova is a big reason for that possibility.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: WCHA Thread III

If that's true, and it may very well be as it's a little hard for me to believe there is such a relative few top players being successfully recruited by SCSU or MSU. Both of whom have had strong classes comprised of Minnesota kids in the past. So It made me wonder why the programs seem to have become such a hard sell to the local kid. A Husky fan mentioned awhile ago that talent assessment is a problem with their current staff, when they were discussing the Huskies dreadful 2010-2011 season. Have to give them some credit for Miss Hanmer though I think. I think she's among the top players in her class...so they done good there. Also, if what you say is true then responsibility rests with the staffs and they need to show more interest, sooner, and be more aggressive to be more successful with recruiting in their backyards. After all...that's where the buck stops regarding recruiting. Staff has to get it done. Otherwise I think they continue to finish at or near the bottom of the conference behind UND and OSU pretty consistently. BSU may do better than that, but like taz mentioned, I think Tomcikova is a big reason for that possibility.

My question to you is, what is a top player? Some kids are great in high school but not so great in college or just good in high school but blossom in college. I think that when people criticize SCSU talent evaluation I think they are saying that SCSU wasn't good at projecting what the high school talent was going to do at the next level or they weren't good at fitting the pieces together to form a good team. SCSU has a lot of girls that were top players in high school but it just hasn't translated to success at the college level. I think its hard to pick talent if you are just looking at HS success and stats with all of the disparity in girls hockey. I think the successful coaches do a better job of projecting the talents and abilities that girls need to succeed at the college level.

 

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

We'll see. Myself, I don't see BSU matching the success or record they achieved in 2010-2011.

Sure, but we thought the same prior to last season, and BSU exceeded our expectations. I know they'll miss Cody a ton, but I'm not ready to write them off.

Bemidji is probably not the easiest sell to many top players out of Minnesota high school...perhaps with challenges greater than SCSU or MSU staff have.

A couple of years ago I'd have agreed with you, but now Bemidji has a much better facility and I'd say their head coach is more proven than those of the other two.

Katy Stone at Harvard seems to add a lot of talent from Minnesota and is big in the development program.

Harvard has always had players from Minnesota, but I'd say the camp familiarity is more likely to make Stone consider those Minnesota kids than it is to be a big factor in them choosing Harvard.

ARM, I will give you BSU moving up the ranks, but we will see in 2012-13 after Tomcikova graduates. Are they that good of a team, or does she make them that good? When Shari Vogt was at Mankato, she made them look a lot better than they were.

I agree that she is their marquee player, but they are deeper than that. They beat MC last year with her on the bench, so their success doesn't start and end there.

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

My question to you is, what is a top player? Some kids are great in high school but not so great in college or just good in high school but blossom in college. I think that when people criticize SCSU talent evaluation I think they are saying that SCSU wasn't good at projecting what the high school talent was going to do at the next level or they weren't good at fitting the pieces together to form a good team. SCSU has a lot of girls that were top players in high school but it just hasn't translated to success at the college level. I think its hard to pick talent if you are just looking at HS success and stats with all of the disparity in girls hockey. I think the successful coaches do a better job of projecting the talents and abilities that girls need to succeed at the college level.

Well I agree with all you state. The criticism from SCSU fans I've heard is that they believe errors were made regarding projections on some of their Minnesota recruits. I know it's hard to project how a successful player in high school will develop and impact her college team. Recruiting is always a bit of a crap shoot in that respect...which goes for every coaching staff. Maybe there is the occasional exception...or sure thing (not referring exclusively to Minnesota kids with that comment).

By top player I simply mean the top 20-30 players in each class that are basically consensus division I caliber (and talented) by those who closely follow the high school game. It's a little to labor intensive for me to weigh every opinion on specific players from everyone who follows the game at the high school level...so there probably isn't a true consensus, but I think there's usually 20-30 in a typical class that most agree are solid D-I prospects and have the tools. They're the players I have in mind when I use the term "top player."

 

[brookyone]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Sure, but we thought the same prior to last season, and BSU exceeded our expectations. I know they'll miss Cody a ton, but I'm not ready to write them off.

It's just a hunch. I think UND and OSU are going to give them trouble next season, so I think they finish ahead of MSU and SCSU but not the Sioux or Buckeyes. I could certainly be wrong...and may not be giving due consideration to the Tomcikova factor. In place of Cody I think Emily E is the one who most needs to step up and fill those skates and be a leader for the Beavers.

A couple of years ago I'd have agreed with you, but now Bemidji has a much better facility and I'd say their head coach is more proven than those of the other two.

The new facility is a big plus for the program. Serty has to be pretty happy about that. The only other obstacle I see is the location / town itself. Not a drawback for all potential recruits...I think Bemidji is a nice town. But I think there are also Minnesota kids that would much rather spend 4-5 years in St. Cloud. I don't know Mankato at all other than All Seasons. Whether that location is a drawback for anyone I wouldn't know. I'll just comment that Vizenor used to recruit locals with pretty good success.

 

[SlewFoot]

Re: WCHA Thread III

Well I agree with all you state. The criticism from SCSU fans I've heard is that they believe errors were made regarding projections on some of their Minnesota recruits. I know it's hard to project how a successful player in high school will develop and impact her college team. Recruiting is always a bit of a crap shoot in that respect...which goes for every coaching staff. Maybe there is the occasional exception...or sure thing (not referring exclusively to Minnesota kids with that comment).

By top player I simply mean the top 20-30 players in each class that are basically consensus division I caliber (and talented) by those who closely follow the high school game. It's a little to labor intensive for me to weigh every opinion on specific players from everyone who follows the game at the high school level...so there probably isn't a true consensus, but I think there's usually 20-30 in a typical class that most agree are solid D-I prospects and have the tools. They're the players I have in mind when I use the term "top player."

I agree with you except I would put a little differently. I think 20-30 have the tools but only 5-10 are virtually can't miss players. The next 10-20 players have the tools but need to be in the right program with the right coach to be successful.

 

[taz91]

Re: WCHA Thread III

I agree with you except I would put a little differently. I think 20-30 have the tools but are a little more than I would say are consensus D1 can't miss players. IMO that the consensus number is closer to 5-10 with the next 10-20 players being successful D1 players if they make it to the right program with the right coach.

I would have to agree with the numbers. You look at players like Callie Dahl at SCSU. She was a finalist for Ms Hockey and in my opinion has disappeared with the Huskies. At Mankato you have the big 3 from South St Paul. Once Nelson moved to St Cloud she put some very nice numbers up, but they couldn't do it together.

As for the recruiting towns, I'm biased towards Mankato having spent 5 years there. I have been up to Bemidji in winter, and that is a tough sell. There isn't a lot to do up there unless you hunt or fish. Mankato and St Cloud are nice because you can make trips to Minneapolis/St Paul with a very short drive. Both also have a lot to do for college students besides going to the bar.

 

[ARM]

Re: WCHA Thread III

II think 20-30 have the tools but only 5-10 are virtually can't miss players.

True. What we typically think of as impact players for the most part come from those 5-10. The problem for the Minnesota state schools isn't just so much the raw numbers that head east from Minnesota HS teams, it is more of a problem if a potential impact player goes in that direction. Beyond Minnesota and now North Dakota, some percentage of the better players are going to pick Wisconsin or Ohio State. Harvard and Dartmouth are usually in the picture. When somebody like Curtis chooses UNH, then that likely represents a hit in quality to the collective rosters of teams like MSU, BSU, and SCSU. They can fill with another player, but will she have equivalent talent?