Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

[OZFEST]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I can assure you the scheduling mandate most definitely did not originate with any administration. It was the coaches, led by one very prominent coach, who pushed to schedule Canton.

Door is cracked Russell. Let us in! John 8:32

 

[DIIIFan]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

Okay, I finally decided to check my sources.

Canton has not even applied to the SUNYAC in any capacity. So, at the earliest, they could join in 2016.

There was a movement to have every SUNYAC hockey team schedule Canton at least once starting next year. However, when some coaches got wind of the fact that Canton is years away from joining, they have "dropped" Canton from their schedule.

I spoke with the Canton's coach not quite 2 weeks ago about this topic and I got the impression that SUNYAC was the way Canton was headed. I hope Canton goes ECAC West so it gives E-W the 7th team for an AC. Also I was told by a hockey player that they will field a womens team next year and there they will have to play in the E-W.
Oswego 88

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I spoke with the Canton's coach not quite 2 weeks ago about this topic and I got the impression that SUNYAC was the way Canton was headed. I hope Canton goes ECAC West so it gives E-W the 7th team for an AC. Also I was told by a hockey player that they will field a womens team next year and there they will have to play in the E-W.
Oswego 88

SUNY Canton Adds Women's Ice Hockey in 2012-13

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I spoke with the Canton's coach not quite 2 weeks ago about this topic and I got the impression that SUNYAC was the way Canton was headed. I hope Canton goes ECAC West so it gives E-W the 7th team for an AC. Also I was told by a hockey player that they will field a womens team next year and there they will have to play in the E-W.
Oswego 88

Seems odd to me that Canton wouldn't be a SUNYAC team by default, if it was so inclined.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

(Any takers on that one..? I have never understood why SUNY-Canton would be in the ECAC-W discussion in the first place.)

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

(Any takers on that one..? I have never understood why SUNY-Canton would be in the ECAC-W discussion in the first place.)

Keep your eye on the bobbin ...

There are many SUNY schools that do not field SUNYAC teams, SUNYAC is for the most part a ALL or none conference, though they do have some Associate Members - for their convenience and perhaps an acknowledgement that in some cases SUNYAC members HAVE to turn to other conferences when the SUNYAC does not sponsor the sport (such as women' ice hockey). That said, it appears to me that SUNY Central is pushing for more intra-SUNY collaboration and will expect Canton to receive more consideration for membership than was Utica (independent of any particular push from any " very prominent coach").

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

Keep your eye on the bobbin ...

There are many SUNY schools that do not field SUNYAC teams, SUNYAC is for the most part a ALL or none conference, though they do have some Associate Members - for their convenience and perhaps an acknowledgement that in some cases SUNYAC members HAVE to turn to other conferences when the SUNYAC does not sponsor the sport (such as women' ice hockey). That said, it appears to me that SUNY Central is pushing for more intra-SUNY collaboration and will expect Canton to receive more consideration for membership than was Utica (independent of any particular push from any " very prominent coach").

There is only one associate member, and that is Morrisville (in Field Hockey and Men's Ice Hockey).

When SUNYIT pulled out, they completely pulled out. When Morrisville pulled out, those two above sports had nowhere to go (The NEAC did not sponsor them). That was when the SUNYAC entertained the idea of associate members (it was never even written into their bylaws at the time).

To the other poster, the reason Canton may not join the SUNYAC is they may not be competitive. Look at Morrisville and SUNYIT's record in the SUNYAC. Just about all their sports did HORRIBLE. Once they moved to the NEAC, they were a lot more competitive. Canton may be concerned they are in the same boat. And if they join NEAC, perhaps the SUNYAC is no longer willing to take on new associate members, and thus will be forced to have their hockey team join the ECAC West.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

(Any takers on that one..? I have never understood why SUNY-Canton would be in the ECAC-W discussion in the first place.)

To expand on norm's answer, there are three SUNY schools in the NEAC -- Cobleskill, Morrisville, and SUNYIT. Alfred State is moving to a four-year institution, just like these schools and Canton did/are doing, and I bet Alfred winds up in the NEAC as well.

And the downstate SUNY schools, like Old Westbury, Farmingdale, and Stony Brook back when they were D3, were never considered for the SUNYAC due to the travel distances. In fact, New Paltz was not in the SUNYAC for a long time for that very reason (and they are not anywhere near as far as the Long Island schools), until they were finally allowed in.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

Keep your eye on the bobbin ...

There are many SUNY schools that do not field SUNYAC teams, SUNYAC is for the most part a ALL or none conference, though they do have some Associate Members - for their convenience and perhaps an acknowledgement that in some cases SUNYAC members HAVE to turn to other conferences when the SUNYAC does not sponsor the sport (such as women' ice hockey). That said, it appears to me that SUNY Central is pushing for more intra-SUNY collaboration and will expect Canton to receive more consideration for membership than was Utica (independent of any particular push from any " very prominent coach").

That would be "bobber", Norm...

(You have a lot to learn about ice-fishin'... If you stop by my shanty with a gallon of peach schnaps sometime, we can talk about it.)

I guess a lifetime of following D-1 is confusing me re: how D-3 works. It seems odd to me that a conference exclusively comprised of SUNY schools would have the latitude to reject any of their brethren, but I gather from what you and RJ posted that it's not always practical to do so.

Thanks to you and Russel for the info.

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

That would be "bobber", Norm...

(You have a lot to learn about ice-fishin'... If you stop by my shanty with a gallon of peach schnaps sometime, we can talk about it.)

I guess a lifetime of following D-1 is confusing me re: how D-3 works. It seems odd to me that a conference exclusively comprised of SUNY schools would have the latitude to reject any of their brethren, but I gather from what you and RJ posted that it's not always practical to do so.

Thanks to you and Russel for the info.

See, I took you for more of a fly fisherman - though in the winter you do have to resort to the shanty Thanks for the invite though, maybe some day along West Canada Creek.

While I agree Russel is spot on with the SUNYAC (he isn't bad for a newbie), I believe Canton is different than Cobleskill, Morrisville, SUNYIT & Alfred State in that they "accidentally" needed a place for their student athletes. As their number of 4 year degree programs increased so did their number of students no longer eligible for NJCAA/2 year sports - basically it came to them, they didn't seek it out. Canton on the other hand appears to be on a very ambitious plan to enter the world of DIII sports. I believe they are in it for the long run, and have the administrative support and athletic department competence to not underestimate the task and to see it through. That coupled with the push from SUNY Central and the abundance of upstate schools with relatively short travel distances will help them along.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

While I agree Russel is spot on with the SUNYAC (he isn't bad for a newbie), I believe Canton is different than Cobleskill, Morrisville, SUNYIT & Alfred State in that they "accidentally" needed a place for their student athletes. As their number of 4 year degree programs increased so did their number of students no longer eligible for NJCAA/2 year sports - basically it came to them, they didn't seek it out. Canton on the other hand appears to be on a very ambitious plan to enter the world of DIII sports. I believe they are in it for the long run, and have the administrative support and athletic department competence to not underestimate the task and to see it through. That coupled with the push from SUNY Central and the abundance of upstate schools with relatively short travel distances will help them along.

First of all, two "L"s in Russell, two "L"s.

You have some good points, and coupled with the multi-million dollar sports complex just completed, one does have to think that Canton will be taking their sports programs a lot more seriusly than the other 2 to 4-year schools. And, though, right now their teams in any sport can not come close to competing with the SUNYAC schools, they certainly have the foundation, and apparently wherewithal, to one day become competitive enough to join the SAUNYAC.

And a reminder to hockey fans, especially ECAC West fans, if Canton joins the SUNYAC as an all sports member, then the hockey team HAS to play in the SUNYAC. There is no option. The only time the hockey team will have an option is if Canton as a whole does not join the SUNYAC.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I guess a lifetime of following D-1 is confusing me re: how D-3 works. It seems odd to me that a conference exclusively comprised of SUNY schools would have the latitude to reject any of their brethren, but I gather from what you and RJ posted that it's not always practical to do so.

One slight correction (unless you did imply that), it's not just the SUNYAC who has rejected SUNY schools in the past. SUNY schools have sometimes rejected the SUNYAC.

Cobleskill never considered the SUNYAC. Morrisville and SUNYIT left the SUNYAC on their own free will. Years ago, when Albany was still a D3 school, they left the SUNYAC (the reason behind that move is quite hysterical).

 

[norm1909]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

First of all, two "L"s in Russell, two "L"s.

You have some good points, and coupled with the multi-million dollar sports complex just completed, one does have to think that Canton will be taking their sports programs a lot more seriusly than the other 2 to 4-year schools. And, though, right now their teams in any sport can not come close to competing with the SUNYAC schools, they certainly have the foundation, and apparently wherewithal, to one day become competitive enough to join the SAUNYAC.

And a reminder to hockey fans, especially ECAC West fans, if Canton joins the SUNYAC as an all sports member, then the hockey team HAS to play in the SUNYAC. There is no option. The only time the hockey team will have an option is if Canton as a whole does not join the SUNYAC.

I had three L's and deleted too many

And I do believe Canton is looking for a home for ALL its teams, and unlike Morrisville who I believe there admin failed to be pro-active in seeking a 4 year sports solution, SUNYIT with its emphasis as a transfer school for 2year school graduates didn't have the heart/desire to seek the resources to push for competive teams of the general SUNYAC caliber and Cobleskill who was proactive and picked what was right for them (which Morrisville said - hey it works for Cobleskill).

I will be very surprised if Canton does not become a SUNYAC member - the NEAC and nearly all alternatives have significant travel costs for Canton that I don't see SUNY Central supporting (much like the WIAC/NCHA).

 

[LakerFan99]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

And a reminder to hockey fans, especially ECAC West fans, if Canton joins the SUNYAC as an all sports member, then the hockey team HAS to play in the SUNYAC. There is no option. The only time the hockey team will have an option is if Canton as a whole does not join the SUNYAC.

I guess my question here would be...why would a school NOT want to join SUNYAC as a whole? Why decide to have some of your teams in the NEAC and some in SUNYAC? Is it strictly a matter of competitiveness?

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I guess my question here would be...why would a school NOT want to join SUNYAC as a whole? Why decide to have some of your teams in the NEAC and some in SUNYAC? Is it strictly a matter of competitiveness?

Pretty much. Morrisville decided that they'd be more competitive in the NEAC, but the NEAC doesn't sponsor ice hockey, so they asked to stay in the SUNYAC.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

There is only one associate member, and that is Morrisville (in Field Hockey and Men's Ice Hockey).

When SUNYIT pulled out, they completely pulled out. When Morrisville pulled out, those two above sports had nowhere to go (The NEAC did not sponsor them). That was when the SUNYAC entertained the idea of associate members (it was never even written into their bylaws at the time).

The whole associate member thing (which Utica tried to take advantage of) was codified for the benefit of the "'Lil Ponies" hockey and field hockey teams. Before that, the SUNYAC was an all or nothing league - belong for all sports or don't belong for any.

As people have said Canton becomes part of the ECAC West discussion if they don't join the SUNYAC as a full member. Then they would have 3 realistic choices (of which two are reasonable):

1. Apply to become a SUNYAC associate member for hockey only (as Utica knows, acceptance is not guaranteed)
2. Join the ECAC West
3. Stay independent

I suppose they could try something creative like joining the ECAC Northeast (although that probably has little likelihood of success, since the LVC drama started when the NE kicked them out for travel reasons), or the ECAC East.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

While I'm certainly not privy to any possible politics involved, I'd bet that the W would welcome Canton with open arms if for no other reason than getting a conference AQ.

Thing is, I'm not so sure that having an AQ would necessarily translate into more berths for the W, since that (presumably) would reduce the available at-large bids to two.

Please correct me if I'm as wrong about that as I usually am about how the D-3 PS works.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

While I'm certainly not privy to any possible politics involved, I'd bet that the W would welcome Canton with open arms if for no other reason than getting a conference AQ.

Thing is, I'm not so sure that having an AQ would necessarily translate into more berths for the W, since that (presumably) would reduce the available at-large bids to two.

Please correct me if I'm as wrong about that as I usually am about how the D-3 PS works.

If the ECAC West were to pick up a 7th team and get an autobid....the number of Pool C at-large bids would remain at three.

Next year once the NCHA is no more and we're left with the WIAC schools without having enough for an at-large, Pool B will be brought back which will be reserved solely for the WIAC and ECAC West schools. Then, then everyone will be left to fight for the three Pool C slots.

We lose an automatic qualifier next year since we're losing a conference that qualifies for Pool A. So instead we get Pool B replacing that AQ so we're still left with three Pool C bids.

If the West were to add a 7th team, Pool B will be eliminated again, the ECAC West will get an AQ bid and then the WIAC schools will be left fighting for Pool C bids.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

Thanks. (Took me a minute or two to process the information, but I managed.) One fewer AQ in such a small field is a good thing.

What happens on the national scene if the W doesn't expand to seven teams, now that the NCHA is out of the AQ scenario?

 

[NorthernBlight]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

Thanks. (Took me a minute or two to process the information, but I managed.) One fewer AQ in such a small field is a good thing.

What happens on the national scene if the W doesn't expand to seven teams, now that the NCHA is out of the AQ scenario?

Do you even bother reading what anyone else ever says? Try reading the post that came just before yours.