Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

[Dyce]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

But...the slogan......"It's My ECAC, It's Your ECAC, It's Our ECAC,".....or is that like "everybody's Mary (or Julie, or Connie)?"

In terms of inspired, insightful branding, it's right up there with

Division III: Discover | Develop | Dedicate​

 

[elbojpb]

Support Your Competition?

Support Your Competition?

Of course, the biggest problem is that nobody outside of the ECAC-West conference (and one might even say some within the conference) gives a cr@p about the teams in the ECAC-West.

The only rationale I can hypothesize is as follows:
1) The SUNY schools have a defacto scheduling alliance with the ECAC/W teams for most (~60%) of NC games.
2) Without a stable league home, more ECAC/W teams will fold (ala Leb Valley, Scranton, St Bon, etc.)
3) The SUNYAC will be left with precious few options for scheduling NC games. (except for perhaps P'burgh and Potsdam)
4) Either travel to New England (CCCP land) or create more incestual schedules. The NE, NESCAC and MASCAC teams aren't going to travel to NY.
5) Creating higher travel costs or less attractive schedules for recruits

My somewhat biased conclusion is that it would be in the long-term best interest of the SUNYAC (and Eastern D3 generally) to adopt the ECAC/W teams. IMHO, a North/South division would be more amenable than an East/West arrangement.

Sometimes you must support your opponents for them to survive. Ask the big market MLB teams.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

But...the slogan......"It's My ECAC, It's Your ECAC, It's Our ECAC,".....or is that like "everybody's Mary (or Julie, or Connie)?"

The slogan can still fit. It doesn't say anything about power...

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

(Call me naive,but here goes

The NCAA is heavy-handed,even Fascist,when it comes to imposing its might whenever it sees fit...So why don't they apply that authority for the "good of the game",in this instance?

There are entire conferences in D-3 hockey whose best team is not as good as any of the top three in the ECAC-W.Yet,all of the former will receive an autobid,by dint of beating enough bad teams in their own league to "qualify" for the post-season.

The ECAC-W did not invent the magic number of teams that legitimizes a conference;the NCAA did.If that bloated organization was truly a steward of the sport,would not they mandate a sensible inclusion of the "orphaned" teams into another conference(s)?Or is it better for D-3 college hockey if strong programs are allowed to be set adrift,via the NCAA's own minimum-member rule?

(This whole issue would pretty much be obviated by eliminating auto-bids,IMO. Auto-bids are a bad idea in general,and most certainly so at this level of hockey.Who cares how many teams your conference has..?If you're good,you're good.)

 

[XYZ]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

In terms of inspired, insightful branding, it's right up there with

Division III: Discover | Develop | Dedicate​

Now that right there is some logic I can get behind. The beauty of it is that wherever you go...there you are. It's perfect.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

(Call me naive,but here goes

The NCAA is heavy-handed,even Fascist,when it comes to imposing its might whenever it sees fit...So why don't they apply that authority for the "good of the game",in this instance?

There are entire conferences in D-3 hockey whose best team is not as good as any of the top three in the ECAC-W.Yet,all of the former will receive an autobid,by dint of beating enough bad teams in their own league to "qualify" for the post-season.

The ECAC-W did not invent the magic number of teams that legitimizes a conference;the NCAA did.If that bloated organization was truly a steward of the sport,would not they mandate a sensible inclusion of the "orphaned" teams into another conference(s)?Or is it better for D-3 college hockey if strong programs are allowed to be set adrift,via the NCAA's own minimum-member rule?

(This whole issue would pretty much be obviated by eliminating auto-bids,IMO. Auto-bids are a bad idea in general,and most certainly so at this level of hockey.Who cares how many teams your conference has..?If you're good,you're good.)

I disagree about autobids, although I think that the autobid should go to the regular season champion, not the tournament champion. On the other hand, the NCAA would have to change the structure of all DIII sports to make the changes that you recommend. The NCAA has one set of rules for all team sports in term of post season play. Making the rules different for hockey would, in their view, create a horrible precedent that some other sport might want their own exception to the NCAA's "perfect" post season rules.

 

[bakdraft21]

Re: Support Your Competition?

Re: Support Your Competition?

The only rationale I can hypothesize is as follows:
1) The SUNY schools have a defacto scheduling alliance with the ECAC/W teams for most (~60%) of NC games.
2) Without a stable league home, more ECAC/W teams will fold (ala Leb Valley, Scranton, St Bon, etc.)
3) The SUNYAC will be left with precious few options for scheduling NC games. (except for perhaps P'burgh and Potsdam)
4) Either travel to New England (CCCP land) or create more incestual schedules. The NE, NESCAC and MASCAC teams aren't going to travel to NY.
5) Creating higher travel costs or less attractive schedules for recruits

My somewhat biased conclusion is that it would be in the long-term best interest of the SUNYAC (and Eastern D3 generally) to adopt the ECAC/W teams. IMHO, a North/South division would be more amenable than an East/West arrangement.

Sometimes you must support your opponents for them to survive. Ask the big market MLB teams.

Just a side question here as i wasnt around when this CCCp thing got started, shouldnt Manhattanville be the CCCP, they got a bunch of guys, and man they are from all over the globe for sure??? thnks ps they must have some " package "

 

[Birdwatcher]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I disagree about autobids, although I think that the autobid should go to the regular season champion, not the tournament champion. On the other hand, the NCAA would have to change the structure of all DIII sports to make the changes that you recommend. The NCAA has one set of rules for all team sports in term of post season play. Making the rules different for hockey would, in their view, create a horrible precedent that some other sport might want their own exception to the NCAA's "perfect" post season rules.

The autobids are spread across all of the NCAA. Look at D1 basketball. Some of the greatest upsets happen because of autobids. It proves that at times even the "weaker" leagues and teams can beat the cream of the crop. An example happened for a local team not too many years ago. Ask Syracuse and Vermont!!

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

(Call me naive,but here goes

The NCAA is heavy-handed,even Fascist,when it comes to imposing its might whenever it sees fit...So why don't they apply that authority for the "good of the game",in this instance?

The NCAA is not as powerful as you think. Remember this past summer when it appeared the whole Division I power conferences were going to have a major revamping? There was nothing the NCAA could do about that even though everyone knew it was probably not good for the sport.

The NCAA also has no control over broadcasting rights within the conference or even individual teams (see Notre Dame football). Years ago, they thought they did. The courts struck it down, and every conference (and in some cases individual teams) had the freedom to negotiate their own broadcast rights. The NCAA can only control the games they control -- the playoffs. Heck, they don't even get anything from the tons of money the BCS Bowls get. I read the NCAA gets a total of $400,000 for all 35 bowl games, and that is only payment for the NCAA to recognize and bless a bowl.

The NCAA does essentially three things -- 1) write the rules for the games, 2) set the eligibility rules and enforce them, and 3) administrate national playoffs.

They may do the above three things with a draconian hand, but beyond that, they essentially have no power.

There are entire conferences in D-3 hockey whose best team is not as good as any of the top three in the ECAC-W.Yet,all of the former will receive an autobid,by dint of beating enough bad teams in their own league to "qualify" for the post-season.,

Yep, and your point is...?

It's worse in the larger sports. Here is a perfect example. SUNYIT pulled out of the SUNYAC because with the exception of one team, they were very uncompetitive in that league in all sports. They joined the NEAC, a lesser competitive conference.

The SUNYIT men's basketball team was a bottom dweller in the SUNYAC. In their first year in the NEAC, they won the conference and went to the NCAA playoffs thanks to the AQ. If they were a bottom dweller in the SUNYAC, just think how many other teams in other conferences just as competitive as the SUNYAC that also did not make the playoffs while SUNYIT got in?

The ECAC-W did not invent the magic number of teams that legitimizes a conference;the NCAA did.

There has to be a cut off somewhere, otherwise everyone would create two-team conferences... The cutoff happens to be seven. The ECAC West has to live with it.

If that bloated organization was truly a steward of the sport,would not they mandate a sensible inclusion of the "orphaned" teams into another conference(s)?

Again, they don't have that power or control, and quite frankly, I doubt any of the college presidents (who are the real ones behind the NCAA and its power) will ever want it that way.

Or is it better for D-3 college hockey if strong programs are allowed to be set adrift,via the NCAA's own minimum-member rule?

Nobody is set adrift. You can still make it in as a Pool C bid. Sure, being an independant is tough, especially in the smaller sports, but nobody is being set adrift.

(This whole issue would pretty much be obviated by eliminating auto-bids,IMO. Auto-bids are a bad idea in general,and most certainly so at this level of hockey.Who cares how many teams your conference has..?If you're good,you're good.)

I'm okay with autobids. That's why they have at-large bids to fall back on for some teams.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I disagree about autobids, although I think that the autobid should go to the regular season champion, not the tournament champion.

You know as well as anyone, it's the conferences that decide how their autobid is decided. Not the NCAA. They could decide to select the team with the nicest uniforms for all the NCAA cares....

 

[PSUChamps2001]

The autobids are spread across all of the NCAA. Look at D1 basketball. Some of the greatest upsets happen because of autobids. It proves that at times even the "weaker" leagues and teams can beat the cream of the crop. An example happened for a local team not too many years ago. Ask Syracuse and Vermont!!

Yea heck even in hockey, look at RIT....

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

You know as well as anyone, it's the conferences that decide how their autobid is decided. Not the NCAA. They could decide to select the team with the nicest uniforms for all the NCAA cares....

I know that I wasn't blaming the NCAA for it - I just disagree with the choice they all have made (except for the Ivy League in basketball). That nonsense started with the ACC basketball tournament back in the 50s when they were the first to use a tournament to fill their NCAA slot. Back then there were few at large bids in D-I basketball and conferences were actually limited to two representatives. There's nothing wrong with a league tournament for bragging rights and revenue, I just think that excellence over the entire season is a better criterion for choosing your post season rep than a one and done scheme. At least the SUNYAC eliminates the last three teams from their playoffs and gives the top two teams a bye - I really liked the old format - but I know they want to enhance the chances for the Pool C bids. I think that there was a lot of neat drama in the old SUNYAC format.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I know that I wasn't blaming the NCAA for it - I just disagree with the choice they all have made (except for the Ivy League in basketball). That nonsense started with the ACC basketball tournament back in the 50s when they were the first to use a tournament to fill their NCAA slot. Back then there were few at large bids in D-I basketball and conferences were actually limited to two representatives. There's nothing wrong with a league tournament for bragging rights and revenue, I just think that excellence over the entire season is a better criterion for choosing your post season rep than a one and done scheme. At least the SUNYAC eliminates the last three teams from their playoffs and gives the top two teams a bye - I really liked the old format - but I know they want to enhance the chances for the Pool C bids. I think that there was a lot of neat drama in the old SUNYAC format.

I enjoyed the old SUNYAC playoff format as well. I also enjoyed it when the NCAA's followed the two-game series/mini-game if necessary first to three points method. I believe the NCHA still uses this format for their tournament IIRC except its a one-game final instead of a three-game best of three series like the SUNYAC had.

 

[gojackets]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I enjoyed the old SUNYAC playoff format as well. I also enjoyed it when the NCAA's followed the two-game series/mini-game if necessary first to three points method. I believe the NCHA still uses this format for their tournament IIRC except its a one-game final instead of a three-game best of three series like the SUNYAC had.

NCHA first round is first to 3 points, after that its 1 and done.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

I enjoyed the old SUNYAC playoff format as well.

You definitely got to see a LOT of hockey!

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

You definitely got to see a LOT of hockey!

I only got to experience it one season, the last in Romney and it didn't go so well with two losses to the Cardinals. However, they were still two of the most fun games I attended at Oswego.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

The NCAA is not as powerful as you think. Remember this past summer when it appeared the whole Division I power conferences were going to have a major revamping? There was nothing the NCAA could do about that even though everyone knew it was probably not good for the sport.

The NCAA also has no control over broadcasting rights within the conference or even individual teams (see Notre Dame football). Years ago, they thought they did. The courts struck it down, and every conference (and in some cases individual teams) had the freedom to negotiate their own broadcast rights. The NCAA can only control the games they control -- the playoffs. Heck, they don't even get anything from the tons of money the BCS Bowls get. I read the NCAA gets a total of $400,000 for all 35 bowl games, and that is only payment for the NCAA to recognize and bless a bowl.

The NCAA does essentially three things -- 1) write the rules for the games, 2) set the eligibility rules and enforce them, and 3) administrate national playoffs.

They may do the above three things with a draconian hand, but beyond that, they essentially have no power.



Yep, and your point is...?

It's worse in the larger sports. Here is a perfect example. SUNYIT pulled out of the SUNYAC because with the exception of one team, they were very uncompetitive in that league in all sports. They joined the NEAC, a lesser competitive conference.

The SUNYIT men's basketball team was a bottom dweller in the SUNYAC. In their first year in the NEAC, they won the conference and went to the NCAA playoffs thanks to the AQ. If they were a bottom dweller in the SUNYAC, just think how many other teams in other conferences just as competitive as the SUNYAC that also did not make the playoffs while SUNYIT got in?



There has to be a cut off somewhere, otherwise everyone would create two-team conferences... The cutoff happens to be seven. The ECAC West has to live with it.



Again, they don't have that power or control, and quite frankly, I doubt any of the college presidents (who are the real ones behind the NCAA and its power) will ever want it that way.



Nobody is set adrift. You can still make it in as a Pool C bid. Sure, being an independant is tough, especially in the smaller sports, but nobody is being set adrift.



I'm okay with autobids. That's why they have at-large bids to fall back on for some teams.

Nice work,dissecting my post and explaining a few things.You shoulda been a surgeon!

I'm thinking that very few people understand the role of the NCAA in this process.(It's kinda like a Mormon wedding in that respect.)So,thank you for your insight.But,I still prefer rewarding merit,whether it be for hockey prowess or anything else you'd care to name.The current system we endure clearly doesn't do that.

FWIW,I wouldn't mind the weak-sister AQ's as much,if the field was expanded to 16 teams.Too often,really good teams stay at home in the current format,while the Blowman States of the world get a chance to lace 'em up and be cannon-fodder.(And 4-team regionals are really fun,which is otherwise pretty hard to come by here in Upstate in the winter.)

Interesting and informative post.Thanks for taking the time.

 

[elbojpb]

New York's fiscal climate

New York's fiscal climate

An interesting parallel conversation which could impact all SUNY athletics surrounds the fiscal state of NY and the SUNY's push to allow schools autonomy in setting tuition rates.

From The Albany Times-Union:

The University at Albany is under an unprecedented financial squeeze. Entire programs in foreign languages are being eliminated due to budget cuts, and 160 job losses are looming. Students are protesting, and lawmakers are railing against what they say are ever-larger classes and potential tuition hikes.

From the Wall Street Journal:

Legislative leaders and advocates fear that a crushing deficit will force Gov. Andrew Cuomo to propose tuition increases for New York's public universities following years of funding cuts and a previous tuition hike.

The Cuomo administration, now working on the state budget proposal, hasn't yet signaled if the state's $11 billion or larger deficit will prompt an increase or if the governor's "no new taxes, period" promise will also mean no tuition increase for more than 600,000 students.

From Rochester's D&C:

The State University of New York is renewing its push to give its colleges and universities greater flexibility to set tuition rates and enter into economic-development deals with private companies.

Should the latter proposal succeed, then each campus would have the ability to set tuition rates, and those schools would be faced with raising rates or cutting programs. In the Medicaid reduction proposals, players are being asked to prioritize services, and cut anything below what the frozen funding allows. Analogizing this to the SUNY campuses, hockey (which appeals to an ardent but very small student population) could be in jeopardy.

Precedent exists in the Pa State Univ system where Mansfield State recently downgraded their football program from Full D2 to Sprint (used to be called light-weight) to avoid having to cut even more academic programs than they did, and lost ~25 players to other schools.

Should prove to be an interesting Summer!

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Re: New York's fiscal climate

Re: New York's fiscal climate

An interesting parallel conversation which could impact all SUNY athletics surrounds the fiscal state of NY and the SUNY's push to allow schools autonomy in setting tuition rates.

From The Albany Times-Union:

From the Wall Street Journal:

From Rochester's D&C:

Should the latter proposal succeed, then each campus would have the ability to set tuition rates, and those schools would be faced with raising rates or cutting programs. In the Medicaid reduction proposals, players are being asked to prioritize services, and cut anything below what the frozen funding allows. Analogizing this to the SUNY campuses, hockey (which appeals to an ardent but very small student population) could be in jeopardy.

Precedent exists in the Pa State Univ system where Mansfield State recently downgraded their football program from Full D2 to Sprint (used to be called light-weight) to avoid having to cut even more academic programs than they did, and lost ~25 players to other schools.

Should prove to be an interesting Summer!

All of the SUNYAC schools' athletic budgets are composed of a separate student activity fee. So, unless they feel the need to reduce that fee if the tuition goes up, I don't see a major impact.

Now, I don't know if this includes salaries. If not, then you could have the situation where they want to reduce staff, and thus by default look to reduce sports.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica to the SUNYAC? - Biggar's Column

Nice work,dissecting my post and explaining a few things.You shoulda been a surgeon!

FWIW,I wouldn't mind the weak-sister AQ's as much,if the field was expanded to 16 teams.Too often,really good teams stay at home in the current format,while the Blowman States of the world get a chance to lace 'em up and be cannon-fodder.(And 4-team regionals are really fun,which is otherwise pretty hard to come by here in Upstate in the winter.)

Interesting and informative post.Thanks for taking the time.

But a 16 team field would require a special dispensation for hockey as the 6.5:1 ratio is used for all DIII sports.