Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

[sshablak]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

TY Ogie !!

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

A. Gee I must have missed the "this is a Utica only" thread, I'm so sorry. Don't you have ticketmaster to go bug? And you pulled the "having a life" ...wow....that must have taken you all day to come up with that original piece there. Never seen that comment before....good job….

B. Really? We are going to compare schedules?

Elmira - Best NC Schedule in the West. Home and home with Oswego, plays the current top 5 SUNYAC teams 4 times, and a date with Amherst or possibly Plattsburgh.

Hobart - Salve Regina, Hamilton, Curry, Nicols....right...

Manhatanville - Western New England (powerhouse), Tufts , Conn College , Trinity , Wentworth , Suffolk

Neumann - Salve Regina , Umass Dart , 6 games against the bottom 3 SUNYAC teams

Utica - Props for Amherst and home and home with Oswego...then....Nicols , Salve , Western New England , and then don’t forget Morrisville, Fredonia, and Cortland...

Plattsburgh - Middlebury, Norwich/St.Thomas, Norwich, Wesleyan, Amherst/Elm, Midd, Williams, at Castleton, at Skidmore

Yes Plattsburgh has to play the Cortland’s and Brockport’s, but I will take the top half of the SUNYAC over the WEST's remaining NC schedule for the most part and I will take Plattsburgh's NC schedule over the ECAC West any day.

The ECAC West gets the big Win% and SOS because they load their NC schedule up with bottom feeders and teams from weak leagues with high winning %. Playing all those ECAC North East teams will really help you come NCAA time. So instead they get some more "gimme" games and take another spot come NCAA time...and then nothing happens yet again.

BTW Since 2000 Norwich/Plattsburgh winning % over ECAC West...65%....they didn't get a better seed because they didn't deserve it per the criteria. Yet they get the points all the time for SOS when all they do is inflate their SOS by playing more and more cream puffs and having their conference play more and more cream puffs giving them a higher winning %....

A lot of chest pounding for some team that is soooo good yet has never seen the light of the NCAA’s…but it’s all a conspiracy that the SUNYAC teams (Plattsburgh and Oswego) and Norwich take their spot away… but yet they all have a winning record against the ECAC West teams by nearly 70%.....

Norwich, Plattsburgh, and Oswego have combined for a TOTAL of 5 At-Large Bids since 2000. Elmira, Manhatanville, and Hobart have combined for 10. Those teams get in because they win their Conference Tournament. It would be great if Plattsburgh played Salve Regina, Suffolk, Western New England and the other cupcakes the ECAC West get to pad their schedule with….They could probably make the NCAA Tourney more. Instead they choose to play consistent NCAA Opponents who get there and win and teams who are consistently a top DIII team so when it comes crunch time, home or away, they are ready.

C. See A

 

[VCMCUC]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

A portion of Manhattanville's non-conference schedule: Western New England (This isn't 2008 anymore. WNE is a pretty good team now with a great Goaltender), Nationally ranked Wentworth, potentially against Castleton, potentially against Nationally-ranked Middlebury. Plus if you add all of the conference games against ECAC West opponents, that's a difficult schedule. In fact, for years Manhattanville has tried to get a game-a-season series with Plattsburgh but the Cardinals declined.

Who the heck said Hamilton and Curry are bad teams? They are solid teams.

I know Plattsburgh, Oswego, and Norwich are the elite teams in the country but that doesn't mean they are the only "good" teams and every other team in Division III is bad.

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

A portion of Manhattanville's non-conference schedule: Western New England (This isn't 2008 anymore. WNE is a pretty good team now with a great Goaltender),

When you give up 10 goals to Johnson and Whales, you're not a good team sorry.

Nationally ranked Wentworth, potentially against Castleton, potentially against Nationally-ranked Middlebury. Plus if you add all of the conference games against ECAC West opponents, that's a difficult schedule. In fact, for years Manhattanville has tried to get a game-a-season series with Plattsburgh but the Cardinals declined.

A. Nationally ranked, for one week maybe. Wentworth has done squate to garner a ranking sorry again.

B. Key word POTENTIALLY

C. Let me spell it out a little slower for you. PLATTSBURGH HAS NO ROOM FOR A GAME. No matter how much Fisher wants to claim to know, Plattsburgh had to give up their annual game with Elmira because of $$$ and play a closer game. They have 25 games, period. Get the NCAA to open up the games again and you might be able to fit it in. Its bad enough if Canton was to join the SUNYAC we would have to get rid of another 2 NC games.

Who the heck said Hamilton and Curry are bad teams? They are solid teams.

Curry, who just got blown out 0-6 by NESCAC power Tufts, the team that takes Plattsburgh's bench players....SOLID

Hamilton, a team who hasnt made the NESCAC Finals...and only made the Semi-Finals a handful of times....an 8 win team last year...SOLID...

Not saying they are Franklin Pierce, but they are not Castleton/Middlebury/Norwich either....

I know Plattsburgh, Oswego, and Norwich are the elite teams in the country but that doesn't mean they are the only "good" teams and every other team in Division III is bad.

Never said they were the ONLY good teams, but with a nearly 70% winning % against ECAC West teams (and they don't play the LV's) I'd say they are on a different level. Again, not saying the ECAC West isn't good, or the teams in it, but they are not the "elite" conference with all the powers of DIII hockey by any means that some like to believe. They are a conference of 3-4 really good D3 hockey teams, and missing the elite hockey team. People act like if any one of those teams were to walking into any other conference they would walk away with the conference title. They would all still be the 2nd to 3rd best team in just about every other major conference in DIII. Sure they could win a titles (see Geneseo, Fredonia) but they would not dominate like Plattsburgh, Oswego and Norwich have for years.

 

[VCMCUC]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

"C. Let me spell it out a little slower for you. PLATTSBURGH HAS NO ROOM FOR A GAME. No matter how much Fisher wants to claim to know, Plattsburgh had to give up their annual game with Elmira because of $$$ and play a closer game. They have 25 games, period. Get the NCAA to open up the games again and you might be able to fit it in. Its bad enough if Canton was to join the SUNYAC we would have to get rid of another 2 NC games."

That's a legit reason for Plattsburgh to decline but that's an example of why some good teams have to have a "powder-puff" non-conference schedule. The elite teams have their schedules filled up. I know Manhattanville as well as other teams would love to play a challenging non-conference schedule against nothing but elite teams but due to these teams like Plattsburgh and Norwich not having games available, they have to resort to playing the Suffolks, Trinity, and Salve Reginas of the world.

 

[llama]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Got to admit, you must be one of the most passionately loyal fans on these threads!
Look, I don’t think any knowledgeable ECAC-W fan is going to try and argue that Plattsburgh and Oswego are not elite programs. Further, I don’t very many ECAC-W fans would ever try and argue that these two programs have not earned their (impressive and sustained) success and “powerhouse” reputation. So, here is my two cents related to the couple for points that I don’t think we agree on:

1. SOS - You are welcome to judge the ECAC-W teams schedules in whatever way you choose…and also explain why you think Plattsburgh’s schedule is superior. BUT, the way the NCAA committee ranks SOS had three ECAC-W teams rank above the Cardinals in this metric last year and the schedules of all five ECAC-W teams ranked above Oswego. It is what it is...
2. Depth of League – The SUNYAC has two elite teams and then a mix of good teams and some “lunchpail” hockey teams that work hard but don’t win a lot of games over the course of an entire season. In contrast, at the end of last year the NCAA ranked all five ECAC-W teams in the top-15 for the East region. Does that mean any one of these teams was “better” than Plattsburgh or Oswego? No, but that was not the point being made when you initially started off on your rant(s)…I believe the point was that (in recent years) there are consistently 4-5 teams in the ECAC-W that are of the caliber to compete with and/or beat any team in the country on any given night. You simply can't say that about the SUNYAC.

Sorry your boys couldn't pull out the win against Middlebury tonight - I was rooting for them. No shame in that loss...I saw Middlebury play last week at Bowdoin and was impressed with their team.

When you give up 10 goals to Johnson and Whales, you're not a good team sorry.



A. Nationally ranked, for one week maybe. Wentworth has done squate to garner a ranking sorry again.

B. Key word POTENTIALLY

C. Let me spell it out a little slower for you. PLATTSBURGH HAS NO ROOM FOR A GAME. No matter how much Fisher wants to claim to know, Plattsburgh had to give up their annual game with Elmira because of $$$ and play a closer game. They have 25 games, period. Get the NCAA to open up the games again and you might be able to fit it in. Its bad enough if Canton was to join the SUNYAC we would have to get rid of another 2 NC games.



Curry, who just got blown out 0-6 by NESCAC power Tufts, the team that takes Plattsburgh's bench players....SOLID

Hamilton, a team who hasnt made the NESCAC Finals...and only made the Semi-Finals a handful of times....an 8 win team last year...SOLID...

Not saying they are Franklin Pierce, but they are not Castleton/Middlebury/Norwich either....



Never said they were the ONLY good teams, but with a nearly 70% winning % against ECAC West teams (and they don't play the LV's) I'd say they are on a different level. Again, not saying the ECAC West isn't good, or the teams in it, but they are not the "elite" conference with all the powers of DIII hockey by any means that some like to believe. They are a conference of 3-4 really good D3 hockey teams, and missing the elite hockey team. People act like if any one of those teams were to walking into any other conference they would walk away with the conference title. They would all still be the 2nd to 3rd best team in just about every other major conference in DIII. Sure they could win a titles (see Geneseo, Fredonia) but they would not dominate like Plattsburgh, Oswego and Norwich have for years.

 

[jconnor]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Elmira - Best NC Schedule in the West. Home and home with Oswego, plays the current top 5 SUNYAC teams 4 times, and a date with Amherst or possibly Plattsburgh.


EveryECAC West team EXCEPT Elmira gets the big Win% and SOS because they load their NC schedule up with bottom feeders and teams from weak leagues with high winning %. Playing all those ECAC North East teams will really help you come NCAA time. So instead they get some more "gimme" games and take another spot come NCAA time...and then nothing happens yet again.

Fixed your post

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Got to admit, you must be one of the most passionately loyal fans on these threads!
Look, I don’t think any knowledgeable ECAC-W fan is going to try and argue that Plattsburgh and Oswego are not elite programs. Further, I don’t very many ECAC-W fans would ever try and argue that these two programs have not earned their (impressive and sustained) success and “powerhouse” reputation. So, here is my two cents related to the couple for points that I don’t think we agree on:

Key word, knowledgeable.....

1. SOS - You are welcome to judge the ECAC-W teams schedules in whatever way you choose…and also explain why you think Plattsburgh’s schedule is superior. BUT, the way the NCAA committee ranks SOS had three ECAC-W teams rank above the Cardinals in this metric last year and the schedules of all five ECAC-W teams ranked above Oswego. It is what it is...

A.
1.Team "X" plays cream puff after cream puff...goes 10-1 NC
2. Team "Z" plays cream puff after cream puff...goes 8-3 NC
3. Team "J" plays semi cream puff after semi cream puff...goes 8-3 NC

Team X, Z, J play each other 3 times. That 26-7 NC records now get added into their SOS.

So we go to OOPW%

Of the 11 teams team "X" played most of them were top teams in weak conferences, thus getting a higher winning % themsevles. Like I said, it pays to play some of those cream puffs....

Meanwhile

1. Team "R" in a different conference does have one of those 3-18-3 teams in their conference and has to play them twice. Lowering their SOS.

Luckly for the West Nazerth seems to be taking to D3 just fine. If they would have turned out to be a Leb.Valley type team you would see the SOS drop BIG time.

Again, I have no issue what so ever in saying the ECAC West is a tough conference, but you do have some people here who believe they are filled with the elite powerhouse type teams.

As I've said, the ECAC West would be typically the 3rd-5th best teams in the SUNYAC, ECAC E, NESCAC nearly every year. Would they win some SUNYAC titles? Sure. Would they dethrown Norwich a time or two? Sure. Middlebury? Absolutley.

2. Depth of League – The SUNYAC has two elite teams and then a mix of good teams and some “lunchpail” hockey teams that work hard but don’t win a lot of games over the course of an entire season. In contrast, at the end of last year the NCAA ranked all five ECAC-W teams in the top-15 for the East region. Does that mean any one of these teams was “better” than Plattsburgh or Oswego? No, but that was not the point being made when you initially started off on your rant(s)…I believe the point was that (in recent years) there are consistently 4-5 teams in the ECAC-W that are of the caliber to compete with and/or beat any team in the country on any given night. You simply can't say that about the SUNYAC.

Yes and No. Fredonia had their time and was pretty dominate in the mid 90's. Heck they have just 1 less NCAA Finals apperance less then all of the ECAC W combined. Buff State and Geneseo can all play with the ECAC West. Rarely are those teams (Buff, Geneseo) blown away. Heck even Brockport has run with the West recently.

If you want to say the West is better then Moville, Brockport, Cortland, Potsdam, Sure...I can gladly go there, which also hurts teams like Plattsburgh and Oswego's winning %, but I will still take those teams over Franklin Pierce, Suffolk ect... The West (just like Plattsburgh and Oswego) have a handly winning % over those teams. Upsets still happen. But in general yes (tho I think Brockport and Cortland are improving but would still be the bottom two ECAC West teams)

But "some" are making it sound like the ECAC West teams are playing the Norwich's, Oswego's, and Plattsburgh's every game in conference. Plattsburgh questionable schedule came up and as I said, I will take their schedule over "most" ECAC West teams schedule any day (be it their fault or not). Teams like Elmira however take on the challenge (home AND away) and their success is noticed. But point is, if they were that good (not just Elmira) they would have more then just 2 Championship game apperances.

While it was a rant, it was originally brought up due to Utica's road scheduling, and their the lack of. For the most part the West isn't shy from a challenge, but certain teams would rather play 80% of their NC games at home and wonder why they can't make it out of their conference first round.

I agree in rewarding SOS, but SOS can be skewed. The West consistantly hangs their hat on SOS and while some teams DO have a challenging schedule, playing everyone at least 3 times and having NO cellar dweller, EVERYONE benifits from it.

Sorry your boys couldn't pull out the win against Middlebury tonight - I was rooting for them. No shame in that loss...I saw Middlebury play last week at Bowdoin and was impressed with their team.

Defensive lapses, one player in particular. It is what it is. Middlebury is much improved then their 0-7 whopping the Cards gave them last year in Middlebury.

 

[llama]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

You've referenced national championship appearances a few times and I believe you may be missing a few ECAC-W appearances. The ECAC-W has had four different teams play in the national championship a total of 7 times since 1984 (the "modern" era)....
Union -'84
RIT - '85,'89,'96,'01
Elmira - '88
Neumann - '09

That said, your recap of 11 SUNYAC appearances (Plattsburgh x6 , Oswego x4, Fredonia x1) looks to be spot on.

Key word, knowledgeable.....



A.
1.Team "X" plays cream puff after cream puff...goes 10-1 NC
2. Team "Z" plays cream puff after cream puff...goes 8-3 NC
3. Team "J" plays semi cream puff after semi cream puff...goes 8-3 NC

Team X, Z, J play each other 3 times. That 26-7 NC records now get added into their SOS.

So we go to OOPW%

Of the 11 teams team "X" played most of them were top teams in weak conferences, thus getting a higher winning % themsevles. Like I said, it pays to play some of those cream puffs....

Meanwhile

1. Team "R" in a different conference does have one of those 3-18-3 teams in their conference and has to play them twice. Lowering their SOS.

Luckly for the West Nazerth seems to be taking to D3 just fine. If they would have turned out to be a Leb.Valley type team you would see the SOS drop BIG time.

Again, I have no issue what so ever in saying the ECAC West is a tough conference, but you do have some people here who believe they are filled with the elite powerhouse type teams.

As I've said, the ECAC West would be typically the 3rd-5th best teams in the SUNYAC, ECAC E, NESCAC nearly every year. Would they win some SUNYAC titles? Sure. Would they dethrown Norwich a time or two? Sure. Middlebury? Absolutley.



Yes and No. Fredonia had their time and was pretty dominate in the mid 90's. Heck they have just 1 less NCAA Finals apperance less then all of the ECAC W combined. Buff State and Geneseo can all play with the ECAC West. Rarely are those teams (Buff, Geneseo) blown away. Heck even Brockport has run with the West recently.

If you want to say the West is better then Moville, Brockport, Cortland, Potsdam, Sure...I can gladly go there, which also hurts teams like Plattsburgh and Oswego's winning %, but I will still take those teams over Franklin Pierce, Suffolk ect... The West (just like Plattsburgh and Oswego) have a handly winning % over those teams. Upsets still happen. But in general yes (tho I think Brockport and Cortland are improving but would still be the bottom two ECAC West teams)

But "some" are making it sound like the ECAC West teams are playing the Norwich's, Oswego's, and Plattsburgh's every game in conference. Plattsburgh questionable schedule came up and as I said, I will take their schedule over "most" ECAC West teams schedule any day (be it their fault or not). Teams like Elmira however take on the challenge (home AND away) and their success is noticed. But point is, if they were that good (not just Elmira) they would have more then just 2 Championship game apperances.

While it was a rant, it was originally brought up due to Utica's road scheduling, and their the lack of. For the most part the West isn't shy from a challenge, but certain teams would rather play 80% of their NC games at home and wonder why they can't make it out of their conference first round.

I agree in rewarding SOS, but SOS can be skewed. The West consistantly hangs their hat on SOS and while some teams DO have a challenging schedule, playing everyone at least 3 times and having NO cellar dweller, EVERYONE benifits from it.



Defensive lapses, one player in particular. It is what it is. Middlebury is much improved then their 0-7 whopping the Cards gave them last year in Middlebury.

 

[Laker28]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

You should note that he is talking about the current incarnation of the ECAC West, RIT and Union are not relevant to the discussion.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Here are the statistical facts.

You conference games will contribute 0.500 to your OWP. The OWP contribution by you conference opponents is due to their non-conference record. Period. If your conference opponents have a habit of scheduling easy wins, it will boost your OWP - but that may come at the risk of lowering your OOWP, which is largely driven by two factors - what kinds of schedules do your opponents play, and what kind of teams do your conference mates play. If your conference mates play cupcakes, your OOWP will be hurt. If you play teams who play in the premier leagues, your OOWP gets a boost, but it's mostly about what kind of opposition the other teams in your league play. There's lots of numerical nuances about the way the NCAA calculates these statistics, too. The NCAA procedure is just a little off.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Got to admit, you must be one of the most passionately loyal fans on these threads!
Look, I don’t think any knowledgeable ECAC-W fan is going to try and argue that Plattsburgh and Oswego are not elite programs. Further, I don’t very many ECAC-W fans would ever try and argue that these two programs have not earned their (impressive and sustained) success and “powerhouse” reputation. So, here is my two cents related to the couple for points that I don’t think we agree on:

1. SOS - You are welcome to judge the ECAC-W teams schedules in whatever way you choose…and also explain why you think Plattsburgh’s schedule is superior. BUT, the way the NCAA committee ranks SOS had three ECAC-W teams rank above the Cardinals in this metric last year and the schedules of all five ECAC-W teams ranked above Oswego. It is what it is...
2. Depth of League – The SUNYAC has two elite teams and then a mix of good teams and some “lunchpail” hockey teams that work hard but don’t win a lot of games over the course of an entire season. In contrast, at the end of last year the NCAA ranked all five ECAC-W teams in the top-15 for the East region. Does that mean any one of these teams was “better” than Plattsburgh or Oswego? No, but that was not the point being made when you initially started off on your rant(s)…I believe the point was that (in recent years) there are consistently 4-5 teams in the ECAC-W that are of the caliber to compete with and/or beat any team in the country on any given night. You simply can't say that about the SUNYAC.

Excellent, succinct post. ("Brevity is the soul of wit", right?)

As you reiterated, this *was* a SOS discussion regarding how entire conferences compare... There was not a single post stating that Utica's daddy could beat-up Plattsburgh's, FCS.

Hope everyone ( even PSUC ) had a nice Thanksgiving and has a game to go see tomorrow.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Here are the statistical facts.

You conference games will contribute 0.500 to your OWP. The OWP contribution by you conference opponents is due to their non-conference record. Period. If your conference opponents have a habit of scheduling easy wins, it will boost your OWP - but that may come at the risk of lowering your OOWP, which is largely driven by two factors - what kinds of schedules do your opponents play, and what kind of teams do your conference mates play. If your conference mates play cupcakes, your OOWP will be hurt. If you play teams who play in the premier leagues, your OOWP gets a boost, but it's mostly about what kind of opposition the other teams in your league play. There's lots of numerical nuances about the way the NCAA calculates these statistics, too. The NCAA procedure is just a little off.

Thanks for weighing-in; perhaps your post will make things a little clearer as to how the ( admittedly imperfect ) objective rankings shake out.

To paraphrase your post a bit, I think it's safe to say that if a team beats the vast majority of its OOC opponents- even the cupcakes -, and its conference-mates do the same, and then that conference plays within itself to a tight finish, the conference in question will be considered strong.

It stands to reason, for most of us.

 

[llama]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

You should note that he is talking about the current incarnation of the ECAC West, RIT and Union are not relevant to the discussion.

Yeah, I bet you're right. But if that is the case and the point was to compare leagues I don't think you can introduce the SUNYAC appearances from the 80's and 90's as relevant to the comparison (M'ville, Neumann and Utica did not have teams in the West back then).

The ECAC-W has had a bunch of teams come and go in the past 20 years....some went D-1, some just couldn't make their programs work at the Varsity level. As such, this kind of comparison (looking at the number of league appearances in the National final) gets too fuzzy for my feeble little brain!

 

[PSUChamps2001]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Yeah, I bet you're right. But if that is the case and the point was to compare leagues I don't think you can introduce the SUNYAC appearances from the 80's and 90's as relevant to the comparison (M'ville, Neumann and Utica did not have teams in the West back then).

The ECAC-W has had a bunch of teams come and go in the past 20 years....some went D-1, some just couldn't make their programs work at the Varsity level. As such, this kind of comparison (looking at the number of league appearances in the National final) gets too fuzzy for my feeble little brain!

And Fredonia didn't have a team back until 87-88 either. Im not sure how it gets fuzzy. It's black and white. 11 Championship apperances to 7 (using your math) and really only 3 since the real "modern era" (1995+ with Midd). Or using Current teams from when the first "new" West team (Manhattanville '99?) was added....5-1...

Canisius, Mercyhurst, Union, RIT and Leb Valley...am I missing one? Unless you wanted to add in the SUNYAC teams that played in the ECAC before the split with Jim Duran leaving the trophey at center ice in Elmira.

 

[NUProf]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Thanks for weighing-in; perhaps your post will make things a little clearer as to how the ( admittedly imperfect ) objective rankings shake out.

To paraphrase your post a bit, I think it's safe to say that if a team beats the vast majority of its OOC opponents- even the cupcakes -, and its conference-mates do the same, and then that conference plays within itself to a tight finish, the conference in question will be considered strong.

It stands to reason, for most of us.

The within conference records totally was out. Back when LVC was going 0-15 in a 6 team league, the 15 league games that LVC lost were going to somebody else. When you remove your games from the pool of games for calculating OWP - (otherwise your OWP is rewarded for losing a game and punished for winning one), every game won by one of your opponents is lost by another one of your opponents. Mathematically the contribution to your OWP from conference play is exactly 0.500, and the more games you play within the league, the closer your overall OOWP will be to 0.500. That's why leagues that play insular schedules can get very misleading OWPs. To a certain extent the same thing happens with the OOWP as well.

Whether your league has a tight finish or not, the issue on the OWP is simply how well your league does in NC games and who you schedule yourself. If everuybody in the ECAC West played a games against Salve Regina and Morrisville, it would really help the OWP for every team in the league, except for the small hit that every team would take for having that team on their schedule, but overall it would be a boost.

This is especially true because the NCAA averages the averages instead of using the cumulative W/L record of the opponents, which would be more accurate.

I'm here to inform and redirect the errors in perception about the statistical procedures that are used, not pump air in anybody's tires. It is extremely difficult to try to measure how "tough" a league is. My computer rankings (found on another site) are an attempt to cut though some of the chaff and provide objective information.

 

[llama]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

And Fredonia didn't have a team back until 87-88 either. Im not sure how it gets fuzzy. It's black and white. 11 Championship apperances to 7 (using your math) and really only 3 since the real "modern era" (1995+ with Midd). Or using Current teams from when the first "new" West team (Manhattanville '99?) was added....5-1...

Canisius, Mercyhurst, Union, RIT and Leb Valley...am I missing one? Unless you wanted to add in the SUNYAC teams that played in the ECAC before the split with Jim Duran leaving the trophey at center ice in Elmira.

I believe St. Bonaventure and University of Scranton also had stints in the ECAC-W....

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

The within conference records totally was out. Back when LVC was going 0-15 in a 6 team league, the 15 league games that LVC lost were going to somebody else. When you remove your games from the pool of games for calculating OWP - (otherwise your OWP is rewarded for losing a game and punished for winning one), every game won by one of your opponents is lost by another one of your opponents. Mathematically the contribution to your OWP from conference play is exactly 0.500, and the more games you play within the league, the closer your overall OOWP will be to 0.500. That's why leagues that play insular schedules can get very misleading OWPs. To a certain extent the same thing happens with the OOWP as well.

Whether your league has a tight finish or not, the issue on the OWP is simply how well your league does in NC games and who you schedule yourself. If everuybody in the ECAC West played a games against Salve Regina and Morrisville, it would really help the OWP for every team in the league, except for the small hit that every team would take for having that team on their schedule, but overall it would be a boost.

This is especially true because the NCAA averages the averages instead of using the cumulative W/L record of the opponents, which would be more accurate.

I'm here to inform and redirect the errors in perception about the statistical procedures that are used, not pump air in anybody's tires. It is extremely difficult to try to measure how "tough" a league is. My computer rankings (found on another site) are an attempt to cut though some of the chaff and provide objective information.

I realize that the objective selection processes that exist don't recognize conference affiliations, nor should they... ( And, believe me, I know you aren't here to pump Utica's tires! )



I was just pointing out that if Conference A goes 44-14 against Conference B in a given year, and Conference A plays to a virtual draw against itself, then the inference may easily be drawn as to which is the stronger overall conference. ( ...It all goes to another tiresome "who's got the better league" debate that I'm confident you had the good judgment to ignore. )

Please post a link to your rankings when you get the time; I'm interested. Thanks.

 

[Fishman'81]

Re: Utica College Pioneers 2012-13 Season

Actual hockey!

Exciting game tonight. Even when UC went up 4-1, I wasn't confident that the deal was done.

I've seen three Amherst teams, and this year's model is far more impressive than the other two. Their first and second lines are especially scary, but their whole crew was strong along the boards, good on their skates and well-disciplined. I'd say that Utica was the better team tonight about 60% of the time, but make no mistake: this one could definitely have gone either way.

Sounding like a broken, um , CD now, but UC must improve in its own end. Adams was his usual clueless self, and Olivieri was just awful attempting to start the breakout, just as he's been all year. Slowy and Schmitt both played after all, and played well. Etts was a little off but covered his mistakes for the most part. (I didn't notice Baird at all, which is the highest compliment one can pay a D-man.)

Therrien was rock-solid. I expect him to start every big game for the foreseeable future.

In summary, this was a good win. I expect Amherst to shred most of their remaining schedule, so this W might pay dividends down the road.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Actual hockey!

Exciting game tonight. Even when UC went up 4-1, I wasn't confident that the deal was done.

I've seen three Amherst teams, and this year's model is far more impressive than the other two. Their first and second lines are especially scary, but their whole crew was strong along the boards, good on their skates and well-disciplined. I'd say that Utica was the better team tonight about 60% of the time, but make no mistake: this one could definitely have gone either way.

Sounding like a broken, um , CD now, but UC must improve in its own end. Adams was his usual clueless self, and Olivieri was just awful attempting to start the breakout, just as he's been all year. Slowy and Schmitt both played after all, and played well. Etts was a little off but covered his mistakes for the most part. (I didn't notice Baird at all, which is the highest compliment one can pay a D-man.)

Therrien was rock-solid. I expect him to start every big game for the foreseeable future.

In summary, this was a good win. I expect Amherst to shred most of their remaining schedule, so this W might pay dividends down the road.

Sounds like another battle might be brewing down the road between Amherst and Middlebury.

The Panthers are very impressive too.