USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

[ARM]

Was the goalie not already pulled ?. Otherwise there would not have been an empty net.

Yes. I'm confused as to why you are confused. My point is that the US had the lead at that point, and even if they get an empty-net goal that is a fluke, it doesn't mean that a victory would have been totally lacking merit.

 

[wwhyte]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

FWIW, as a BC fan, I hope we get to play Minnesota. Not just because it means we'll be in the final, but because, as ARM says, you don't just want to win the Championship, you want to prove you're the best. I would not like to live with "you only won because BU beat Minnesota for you".

And also for good hockey. The Frozen Four game last year was one of the best games of the year. I'd love a rematch.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

I'm sure BC vs. Minnesota would be an awesome game. And no doubt about it, beating Minnesota for the title would be oh-so-sweet. But my championshipless team (conference) (region) (half of the continent) is not in a position to be choosy about how they win their championships. If we beat Clarkson, Mercyhurst, and BU, I will not be any less through the roof than if we beat Clarkson, Cornell, and Minnesota.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

Yes. I'm confused as to why you are confused. My point is that the US had the lead at that point, and even if they get an empty-net goal that is a fluke, it doesn't mean that a victory would have been totally lacking merit.

Got the rest of your post/gist right away, but found the sentence emphasis on what comes first vs what comes second confusing.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

Hollow? Not in the least.

I think that you are contradicting the point that you previously made which I fully agreed with which was that a team, especially a team of over achievers, would rather know that they won because they were the best not because they were the luckiest.

And yes, I understand the rebuttals put forth by you and Eeyore, I just don't buy it in these two situations being discussed...or at the very least, it's a matter of degree that we are debating.

To believe you both we'd also have to believe that these women (Frozen Four competitors winning the grand prize by playing nothing but also rans and Olympic Gold Medal contenders) are devoid of conscience and something that would approximate a high set of values. You can't tell me that in either situation, especially the empty netter scenario, that the lucky team would be enthusiastically high fiving each other if they had seen all that happened. If they were intelligent enough, which I assume that they are, they would quickly do a mental role reversal and understand how they would feel if their opponents were given a free goal like that in those exact same circumstances. And if they had any class they would feel embarrassed by the situation. And if they did, nobody would have to tell them that this was not how they wanted it to happen, because it detracts from the victory...it cheapens it, no matter how much they may wish that they can rationalize it away. Their own consciences would telling them what they need to be thinking and would be guiding them truthfully.

So, if we disagree, that's fine. I just choose to believe that these women haven't yet had their value systems corrupted like most of the rest of the world. And if I'm wrong about that then I'd have to ask why should anyone care if they win anything?...if they can be bought like a bag of groceries where is the virtue in winning? What happened to respect for your competitors and the ideals that sport was meant to epitomize?

This is what's wrong with the world at large...winning at all cost, even if it's a cheap win....not enough self respect.

 

[brookyone]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

This is what's wrong with the world at large...winning at all cost, even if it's a cheap win....not enough self respect.

Mookie, Ray and the rest of the Mets would disagree I think. Billy Buckner might share your distaste for cheap wins.

 

[ARM]

So, if we disagree, that's fine.

Yes, we disagree. The officials are part of the rink, and bounces happen all the time in every game. Some are in your favor, others not. I note that you didn't get anywhere near as filled with high ideals when Canada benefitted with an insurance goal versus the US in pool play from an official being in the way. I didn't expect Agosta to pull over and say, "Time out! That ref got in the way. Here, have the puck back." It's an imperfect game, and like life, it won't always be fair. I can accept that.

 

[Trillium]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

I think that you are contradicting the point that you previously made which I fully agreed with which was that a team, especially a team of over achievers, would rather know that they won because they were the best not because they were the luckiest.

And yes, I understand the rebuttals put forth by you and Eeyore, I just don't buy it in these two situations being discussed...or at the very least, it's a matter of degree that we are debating.

To believe you both we'd also have to believe that these women (Frozen Four competitors winning the grand prize by playing nothing but also rans and Olympic Gold Medal contenders) are devoid of conscience and something that would approximate a high set of values. You can't tell me that in either situation, especially the empty netter scenario, that the lucky team would be enthusiastically high fiving each other if they had seen all that happened. If they were intelligent enough, which I assume that they are, they would quickly do a mental role reversal and understand how they would feel if their opponents were given a free goal like that in those exact same circumstances. And if they had any class they would feel embarrassed by the situation. And if they did, nobody would have to tell them that this was not how they wanted it to happen, because it detracts from the victory...it cheapens it, no matter how much they may wish that they can rationalize it away. Their own consciences would telling them what they need to be thinking and would be guiding them truthfully.

So, if we disagree, that's fine. I just choose to believe that these women haven't yet had their value systems corrupted like most of the rest of the world. And if I'm wrong about that then I'd have to ask why should anyone care if they win anything?...if they can be bought like a bag of groceries where is the virtue in winning? What happened to respect for your competitors and the ideals that sport was meant to epitomize?

This is what's wrong with the world at large...winning at all cost, even if it's a cheap win....not enough self respect.

THIS!

Every time I watch two teams in a tight game, especially one that goes to overtime, my first wish is that the winning goal is a really good goal on a good play, not a cheesy one. Of course, I'd most want to win that way, but ultimately it hurts a whole lot less to lose that way too. At least you never have to listen to the whiners forever more say you didn't really deserve it.

 

[D2D]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

Just catching up on the Forum, and couldn't let this one go by without a comment:

Last year BC had to play Minnesota in the semifinals. BU had to play, what, Cornell?, who was not in the same stratosphere as Minnesota, because no one was in the same stratosphere as Minnesota.

A bit of an exaggeration, I think, considering that last season:
- BU and Cornell split in the regular season
- It took OT for BC to beat Cornell, 4-3
- And, as you've replayed over and over in your worst nightmare ever since, Minnesota beat BC in the NCAA semifinal - but that too was a one goal game decided in overtime

All which point to the fact that on any given day, any of these four teams could have come out on top against any of the others. Minnesota ended up winning it, and as good as they were it's just not accurate to say that "no one was in the same stratosphere as Minnesota".

We'll see what develops this year, but I don't think it will be an easy road for whatever team wins it, including Minnesota, no matter which teams they end up playing should they get past BU.

 

[joegrav]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

Just catching up on the Forum, and couldn't let this one go by without a comment:



A bit of an exaggeration, I think, considering that last season:
- BU and Cornell split in the regular season
- It took OT for BC to beat Cornell, 4-3
- And, as you've replayed over and over in your worst nightmare ever since, Minnesota beat BC in the NCAA semifinal - but that too was a one goal game decided in overtime

All which point to the fact that on any given day, any of these four teams could have come out on top against any of the others. Minnesota ended up winning it, and as good as they were it's just not accurate to say that "no one was in the same stratosphere as Minnesota".

We'll see what develops this year, but I don't think it will be an easy road for whatever team wins it, including Minnesota, no matter which teams they end up playing should they get past BU.

He wasn't saying BC was better than Cornell. He was saying Cornell was not nearly as good as Minnesota (there are about 15,000 stats that can back this up). BC played the game of their lives against Minnesota last year in the FF. If they played like that against any other team, they probably would have won.

On any given day, anyone can beat anyone, but BC will beat Cornell on more given days than they will beat Minnesota.

I don't get why this concept is so difficult to grasp.

Winning the championship is never an easy road, regardless of who you play. First, you need to have an outstanding regular season just to get in. Just being very good isn't enough - ask North Dakota and Quinnipiac. Then you need to win three single-elimination games all against teams that were among the very best in the country all year. That feat requires an incredible amount of skill, focus, desire, and luck.

But just because there are no easy roads doesn't mean some matchups are more favorable than others. And when your team has never won a national championship before, I don't think it's wrong to just really want them to have the best chance of winning the championship, rather than meeting some sort of platonic ideal of what winning the championship is supposed to look like.

In the 2008 men's tournament, Michigan was the #1 seed, and seemed destined to plow through everyone. They were knocked off in OT by Notre Dame in the national semifinal. BC then beat Notre Dame pretty easily to win the title. I have no doubt that a game against Michigan probably would have been tougher. Even though the win was not against the #1 seed, the players still got rings, and they still raised a banner. There's no asterisk next to it in the record book.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

I think that you are contradicting the point that you previously made which I fully agreed with which was that a team, especially a team of over achievers, would rather know that they won because they were the best not because they were the luckiest.

And yes, I understand the rebuttals put forth by you and Eeyore, I just don't buy it in these two situations being discussed...or at the very least, it's a matter of degree that we are debating.

To believe you both we'd also have to believe that these women (Frozen Four competitors winning the grand prize by playing nothing but also rans and Olympic Gold Medal contenders) are devoid of conscience and something that would approximate a high set of values. You can't tell me that in either situation, especially the empty netter scenario, that the lucky team would be enthusiastically high fiving each other if they had seen all that happened. If they were intelligent enough, which I assume that they are, they would quickly do a mental role reversal and understand how they would feel if their opponents were given a free goal like that in those exact same circumstances. And if they had any class they would feel embarrassed by the situation. And if they did, nobody would have to tell them that this was not how they wanted it to happen, because it detracts from the victory...it cheapens it, no matter how much they may wish that they can rationalize it away. Their own consciences would telling them what they need to be thinking and would be guiding them truthfully.

So, if we disagree, that's fine. I just choose to believe that these women haven't yet had their value systems corrupted like most of the rest of the world. And if I'm wrong about that then I'd have to ask why should anyone care if they win anything?...if they can be bought like a bag of groceries where is the virtue in winning? What happened to respect for your competitors and the ideals that sport was meant to epitomize?

This is what's wrong with the world at large...winning at all cost, even if it's a cheap win....not enough self respect.

Well that's quite a high horse you and Trillium find yourselves upon. I'm still waiting for an actual example of a team that benefited from bad officiating coming out and saying that it cheapened a championship.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

In the 2008 men's tournament, Michigan was the #1 seed, and seemed destined to plow through everyone. They were knocked off in OT by Notre Dame in the national semifinal. BC then beat Notre Dame pretty easily to win the title. I have no doubt that a game against Michigan probably would have been tougher. Even though the win was not against the #1 seed, the players still got rings, and they still raised a banner. There's no asterisk next to it in the record book.

That's another team that benefited from a horrible officiating call late in a championship game without letting it detract from their elation.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

Winning the championship is never an easy road, regardless of who you play. First, you need to have an outstanding regular season just to get in. Just being very good isn't enough - ask North Dakota and Quinnipiac. Then you need to win three single-elimination games all against teams that were among the very best in the country all year. That feat requires an incredible amount of skill, focus, desire, and luck.

That sums it up very good. Love your last sentence, although would amend it slightly:

"That feat requires an incredible amount of skill, focus, desire, and sometimes some luck."

Bottom line is that there are many good teams in the tournament. These teams are by and large all winners, but only one can be the champion.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

I note that you didn't get anywhere near as filled with high ideals when Canada benefitted with an insurance goal versus the US in pool play from an official being in the way. I didn't expect Agosta to pull over and say, "Time out! That ref got in the way. Here, have the puck back."

I agree with your response apart from what I've quoted above.

I think you've missed my point.

(I'm not aware of the example that you gave so I can't comment on it, although, you've got my curiosity so I'll see if I still have that game saved so I can try to see what you were pointing out).

However, although the above comment you made may be accurate, it is irrelevant in that it only serves to deflect attention from the point that I was making since I was specifically referring only to "these two situations being discussed" where there is no tomorrow, it's for all the marbles, combined with the other specifics of each of those two situations.

So, as I mentioned, I think that our disagreement is about a matter of degree.

And I note that you've become rather feisty recently, which is not a bad thing.

 

[ARM]

So, as I mentioned, I think that our disagreement is about a matter of degree.

Yes, in that I think you went too far. As Trillium says, we all want the deciding plays in hockey games to be "good goals." That wish isn't always granted. It's a messy game in a messy world. Luck is very much part of the game. To suggest that a team that wins thanks to a lucky break is somehow lacking in self respect if it celebrates does not have merit in my view. They've invested all the work along the way, done many, many things right, came out on top, but still can't celebrate because of a break? Yes, I disagree. If you want all contests to be entirely free of luck and fates, kind and unkind, then follow chess or something similar.

As for feisty, I didn't even use any of the #(@&% symbols.

 

[TonyTheTiger20]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

Luck is very much part of the game. To suggest that a team that wins thanks to a lucky break is somehow lacking in self respect if it celebrates does not have merit in my view.

Wait, so, I'm aloud to celebrate if BC catches a lucky break and beats BU, rather than Minnesota, in the championship?

 

[ARM]

Wait, so, I'm aloud to celebrate if BC catches a lucky break and beats BU, rather than Minnesota, in the championship?

Your team is allowed to celebrate. You, being a highly intelligent and compassionate human being, will sense that I'm hanging on by the slimmest of threads after the crushing defeat at the hands of the Terriers, and will be careful to publicly post how you wish that the Eagles had the opportunity to prove to the Gophers on the ice that they were the better team. And then you'll follow that up by posting "Over-Rated" in white font just below.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

And I note that you've become rather feisty recently, which is not a bad thing.

It's tournament time. Seems like many are on edge.

 

[OnMAA]

Re: USCHO Women's Hockey Posters Poll

If you want all contests to be entirely free of luck and fates, kind and unkind, then follow chess or something similar.

Reminds me of the Spassky - Fisher match.

 

[Cali]

Wait, so, I'm aloud to celebrate if BC catches a lucky break and beats BU, rather than Minnesota, in the championship?

Yes but do it quietly