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US Foreign Policy 3.0: We're The Mets of International Diplomacy

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Handyman said:
Its a little different invading a country that is in another part of the world. (yes I know we had bases but still) Plus at the time people seemed surprised we defeated Iraq so quickly. I doubt we have these types of problems if we invade Canada ;^)

These countries are obviously much closer and Russia has a clear numbers advantage. I guarantee no matter how much they spin they didn't think they would be still be outside of Kyiv and there is no way a Melomaniac like Putin is taking what is going on well.

Found this on Twitter which made me smile:


Here is video of that actually happening: https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/st...93371071123456
Click to expand...


Iraq had a joke of a military; with troops unwilling to fight when confronted. They melted away, joined militias, and made the occupation a nightmare.
Ukraine is the opposite. They've a very solid military, inflow of allied weaponry, and a motivated fighting force.

If your point was regarding optics, then we're on the same page.
Our own propaganda machines will find every opportunity to laugh at Russia. And Putin's deranged worldview and arrogant miscalculation gave us fodder for this. Russian military brass were probably pulling their hair out over Putin's decision. Likely why, from all indications, Russian state security apparatus were not in the know either.


But if your point is regarding intelligent and realistic military expectations, you're completely out to lunch. Invading Ukraine would be a nightmarish handful for any military in the world.
 
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MiGs from Poland dead again. Everyone is scared to death of this. It would be comical if it wasn't so deadly serious.
 
psych said:
Two questions: 1) Do these far left people you know already loyally vote Democrat and 2) If they don’t, are they brittle enough to not vote at all, or vote 3rd party, because of mean centrists rightfully mocking some of their positions and/or demands? If #1 is yes, then who the fuck cares what the centrists are saying about you? Grow a larger coalition and beat them in the primaries.
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Most of the loudest ones are the type that would burn the house down to prove a point. The ones who take pride in not voting Dem because Dems are just the same as GOPers. They are the people you should never take seriously and who will never be in positions of power because they don't understand how to play games of strategy.

Put it this way, they would hate Kepler because to them he is a sellout. To them it is not about winning and the "support everyone that isn't a Nazi" platform is disgusting to them. They are ride or die, all or nothing. Compromise is evil.
 
Handyman said:
Most of the loudest ones are the type that would burn the house down to prove a point. The ones who take pride in not voting Dem because Dems are just the same as GOPers. They are the people you should never take seriously and who will never be in positions of power because they don't understand how to play games of strategy.

Put it this way, they would hate Kepler because to them he is a sellout. To them it is not about winning and the "support everyone that isn't a Nazi" platform is disgusting to them. They are ride or die, all or nothing. Compromise is evil.
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Yup, they want Dems to lose because "they need to learn a lesson".
 
Steffek said:
Iraq had a joke of a military; with troops unwilling to fight when confronted. They melted away, joined militias, and made the occupation a nightmare.
Ukraine is the opposite. They've a very solid military, inflow of allied weaponry, and a motivated fighting force.

If your point was regarding optics, then we're on the same page.
Our own propaganda machines will find every opportunity to laugh at Russia. And Putin's deranged worldview and arrogant miscalculation gave us fodder for this. Russian military brass were probably pulling their hair out over Putin's decision. Likely why, from all indications, Russian state security apparatus were not in the know either.


But if your point is regarding intelligent and realistic military expectations, you're completely out to lunch. Invading Ukraine would be a nightmarish handful for any military in the world.
Click to expand...

When Iraq invaded Kuwait the army went house to house taking tvs, washers & dryers, and tires out and loaded them into trucks to drive back to Iraq
 
Kepler said:
1) They have lately. It is true there was a thriving third party Left, primarily the Greens. But we learned. The Leftist discussion groups now host some of the most eloquent spokespeople for "we've got a bigger problem now" and not making the perfect the enemy of the good.

2. The Left is anything but brittle. Having gotten nothing from the Democrats for almost our entire history but scorn and then a brief outpouring of meaningless verbal support every fourth year, the Left, whether African American, urban white, or suburban white, is the most resilient political force in America.

As for your conclusion, it's stupid. There's a reason we aren't at each other's throats anymore -- the fascists are at the gates, literally. Until the Center learns they aren't the default, like olde tyme whites who didn't even think to realize that white is itself a color, then the opponents of the fascists will be weakened.

All we are saying to the Center is grow up. You're in a coalition, and you aren't the default. You're just another special interest group, like us or the fascists. You have your needs and your illusions and your bullsh-t self-congratulatory ideology, same as the rest of us do. You're just another John trying to buy off the whore of the American electorate. Start being a good teammate.
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Why should the Center listen to you? It’s home to the largest array of voters, including people of color. Right now, they are the default. I’m on the Left with you, been there since you were busy voting libertarian candidates into a 3rd place loss, and if you’re our salesman, we’re fucked. This is one of those times I’ll morph into Hovey and say “Quit whining and do something about it.” Get more people to vote for the Left, win primaries, and in the meantime, stop telling people who are already your teammates to be good teammates. If you’re suggesting the Left winning primaries leads to general election losses, and we need to stay united against Nazis right now, then it sounds like the Center being default fits like a glove.
 
Then "the Center" should get on board and pass Biden's agenda, instead of constantly sabotaging it.

The "wacky left" sucked it up, put aside their qualms, and did what's right for the team.
 
The Center has been fucking the Left for a long time, but until we start consistently beating them at the ballot box, they have little incentive to change. It doesn’t help that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema represent our Center right now. Hopefully Jessica Cisneros can beat indicted Henry Cuellar in Texas, and then win the general election. Hopefully John Fetterman wins the Pa Senate primary, rather than centrist Connor Lamb. On and on.
 
Handyman said:
Most of the loudest ones are the type that would burn the house down to prove a point. The ones who take pride in not voting Dem because Dems are just the same as GOPers. They are the people you should never take seriously and who will never be in positions of power because they don't understand how to play games of strategy.

Put it this way, they would hate Kepler because to them he is a sellout. To them it is not about winning and the "support everyone that isn't a Nazi" platform is disgusting to them. They are ride or die, all or nothing. Compromise is evil.
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Yes, these people exist, I have been banned from their subs on reddit.

In numbers they couldn't even fill Lynah Rink. And yet some are constantly whinging about them either because they are deploying a cynical rhetorical tactic or they genuinely believe in this strawman.
 
Kepler said:
Yes, these people exist, I have been banned from their subs on reddit.

In numbers they couldn't even fill Lynah Rink. And yet some are constantly whinging about them either because they are deploying a cynical rhetorical tactic or they genuinely believe in this strawman.
Click to expand...

Its more than you think...and the reason we whine is because those types are what a lot of people/voters believe the Left is truly about. They are the default face of it because they are the loudest. They say the dumbest things, they do even dumber things and they suck the air out of the entire Left agenda by doing it. Part of that is because we don't shut them up like we should. Thankfully, in some places, that seems to be changing lets just hope it isn't too late...

Sometimes you seem to forget that most voters aren't as engaged or informed as we are so the things that grab attention are the things that they remember when going to the ballot box.

(to be fair I live in a very Blue area I see a lot of these people and they have positions of power in my State)
 
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Handyman said:
Isn't it starting to seem like Putin is now flat out daring the West to do this so he can have his war? Like he read the tea leaves and realized Ukraine won't be enough of a win after all of this and now he needs the whole megillah? I mean he isn't even trying to hide his atrocities...
Click to expand...

Was thinking the same thing.
 
Handyman said:
Isn't it starting to seem like Putin is now flat out daring the West to do this so he can have his war? Like he read the tea leaves and realized Ukraine won't be enough of a win after all of this and now he needs the whole megillah? I mean he isn't even trying to hide his atrocities...
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Well, a couple things.

1. This is every war. You don't think we struck maternity hospitals in Baghdad?

2. I do not think Putin wants war with NATO because that ends in one of three ways: the complete exposure of the Russian military as a fraud, nuclear annihilation of humanity, or a palace coup and Russia offers Putin to the Hague in exchange for peace. What we are seeing in Ukraine is nuclear blackmail, not strategic provocation. It's the most dangerous bluff in history, but we cannot call it because he knows once we call it he cannot win.
 
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