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US Foreign Policy 3.0: We're The Mets of International Diplomacy

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I agree with most of that but the carpet bombing part. Our own country went ape shit after 9/11, and if it had been done by Mexican cartels instead of the Taliban, our military would still be there blowing shit up. (and let's not get into comparisons with the Iraq part of the war of terror). As it was, we were in Afghanistan for what, 20 or so years? And that was some place halfway around the globe, not right on our border.

Hamas effectively controls Gaza, which means when they attacked Israel the way they did, going after civilians specifically, they opened themselves up for this kind of retribution. I'm sorry, but they lost any moral high ground they had been building on 10/7, and anyone who can make Bibi seem like the sane one deserves everything they get coming at them.
 
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unofan said:
I agree with most of that but the carpet bombing part. Our own country went ape **** after 9/11, and if it had been done by Mexican cartels instead of the Taliban, our military would still be there blowing **** up. (and let's not get into comparisons with the Iraq part of the war of terror). As it was, we were in Afghanistan for what, 20 or so years? And that was some place halfway around the globe, not right on our border.

Hamas effectively controls Gaza, which means when they attacked Israel the way they did, going after civilians specifically, they opened themselves up for this kind of retribution. I'm sorry, but they lost any moral high ground they had been building on 10/7, and anyone who can make Bibi seem like the sane one deserves everything they get coming at them.
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They have dropped more bombs on Gaza*in the last several weeks than were dropped in any single year of the conflict in Iraq.

also worth noting that roughly half the population of Gaza was born AFTER the last time elections were held in Gaza.

*a location about the size of manhattan with one of the highest population densities in the world
 
psych said:
I support Palestinians. I support a two-state solution. I don’t support Israel’s government. I don’t support their carpet bombing of Gaza, basically an open-air prison for decades now. I don’t want Israelis and Jews targeted or harassed or killed, especially ones who don’t support Bibi’s government and his anti-Palestinian, no, anti-human, policies. I also think our government’s full-throated support for Israel, while doing things like dismissing death tolls of Palestinians in Gaza (which Biden’s staff uses internally amongst themselves) is wrong, and I disagree with it. I think Biden needs to support Palestinians- not Hamas- Palestinians. I think he could support both sides of this conflict, but I don’t see it anywhere, and that disappoints me. Not enough to not vote for him- I’m not Muslim and/or (previously) persecuted like my Bosnian coworkers, but I simply don’t like his response. I am very far left, and a privileged white man. I also do not think I am tripping over my d-ck for holding such beliefs.
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And I think you know who I mean when I am talking about people tripping over their dicks is not people like you...unless you are walking around ripping down the flyers of the hostages (you know, the ones still being held which started all of this taken during an unprovoked terrorist attack) burning Israeli Flags (or putting swastikas on them along with buildings) and saying Israelis deserve this and should be pushed into the sea. And yes those are things I have seen since all of this started.

And Hamas is the government in control of Gaza...as long as that is the case I hope we don't take anything they say seriously. Their leaders are still saying they did not kill any civilians...cause the IDF has lots of children and elderly members. Unless it is independently verified I would trust them as much as I trust The Taliban or the Saudis.

I hate what Israel is doing...every friggin minute of it and 100% want a ceasefire. But they didnt start this and Hamas could end this but don't want to because they wanted this from the beginning. Listening to how people are starting to ignore the precipitating factor of all this and ignoring phucking history pretending Israel somehow stole Palestine from the Palestinians and that this justifies all the violence since 1948. Maybe we should make a Tik Tock so they could learn about who screwed all this up.

And I know im being a dick...I am very raw over this but it's disconcerting to know that if say Ireland attacked Britain and took a bunch of hostages and killed others the reactions would not be the same. Sure we would want a ceasefire but no one at Tulane would be dressed up as the IRA burning The Union Jack in front of British students and wishing them death. And that is why we are conditioned to be prepared for everyone to turn on us...this was predictable for Jews my age and older.

(Sorry...I am just done with this. I have zero issue with you and agree with you for the most part)
 
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ScoobyDoo said:
That's not enough. The idiots have taken over the narrative.
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Not on the actual Left, they haven't. That is a useful way to portray them in media circles, and that game is infinitely flexible with selective reporting.

There really are, or at least were, fascists among Ukrainian fighters in the Donbas. Russian civilians believe that's all Ukrainian soldiers, because that furthers a narrative Russian media puts out.

Likewise, our own Right has Americans believing the Left is dominated by Tankies. It helps at election time, when we voice pesky and popular ideas about the rich paying their fair share, to paint us all as anti-Semitic terrorist apologists.
 
psych said:
I support Palestinians. I support a two-state solution. I don’t support Israel’s government. I don’t support their carpet bombing of Gaza, basically an open-air prison for decades now. I don’t want Israelis and Jews targeted or harassed or killed, especially ones who don’t support Bibi’s government and his anti-Palestinian, no, anti-human, policies. I also think our government’s full-throated support for Israel, while doing things like dismissing death tolls of Palestinians in Gaza (which Biden’s staff uses internally amongst themselves) is wrong, and I disagree with it. I think Biden needs to support Palestinians- not Hamas- Palestinians. I think he could support both sides of this conflict, but I don’t see it anywhere, and that disappoints me. Not enough to not vote for him- I’m not Muslim and/or (previously) persecuted like my Bosnian coworkers, but I simply don’t like his response. I am very far left, and a privileged white man. I also do not think I am tripping over my d-ck for holding such beliefs.
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I’m not far left and I feel the same way.

The people trying to limit the protests are just going to make them that much stronger. It’s literally the dumbest thing you could do.
 
As long as it doesn't become the predominant voice by Democrats in office the GQP won't have a legit leg to stand on when they inevitably try to paint the left as terrorist sympathizers.
 
Slap Shot said:
As long as it doesn't become the predominant voice by Democrats in office the GQP won't have a legit leg to stand on when they inevitably try to paint the left as terrorist sympathizers.
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There's a vast ocean of difference between "finally, Hamas stuck it to those fascist barbarians! Yay terror!" and "It would really be better if Israel didn't drop guided munitions on babies."

But even that is too much nuance for the RWNJs.
 
LynahFan said:
There's a vast ocean of difference between "finally, Hamas stuck it to those fascist barbarians! Yay terror!" and "It would really be better if Israel didn't drop guided munitions on babies."

But even that is too much nuance for the RWNJs.
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The sad thing is how the entire media jumped that train out of fear. They should know better. But you don't call an IDF bombing of a hospital in Gaza an "attack." It's a "response." The same thing happened after 9/11. The first casualty of war.
 
Russell Jaslow said:
Hamas knew exactly what the response would be from Israel if they pulled off a terrorist attack like they did.

And they wanted that response.

I'll leave it at that.
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That's not enough. All that says is Hamas is guilty of the murder of its own people, and that killing off Hamas will be a gift to Palestinians as much as a gift to Israelis.

Nobody disagrees with that. The disagreement is there's a baby killer armed to teeth living in a high rise terrorizing 1000 neighbors, so we bombed the high rise. We killed the baby killer (maybe). Those other people including other babies we killed? No, it was just a "response." Surely, you don't approve of baby killing?!
 
Kepler said:
That's not enough. All that says is Hamas is guilty of the murder of its own people, and that killing off Hamas will be a gift to Palestinians as much as a gift to Israelis.

Nobody disagrees with that. The disagreement is there's a baby killer armed to teeth living in a high rise terrorizing 1000 neighbors, so we bombed the high rise. We killed the baby killer (maybe). Those other people including other babies we killed? No, it was just a "response." Surely, you don't approve of baby killing?!
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It doesn't matter whether you are right (which your are). Hamas (but not you) understood the two word mantra all Jews have had since the Holocaust -- Never Again. Once they kicked that feeling into the Israelis, they knew all right and wrong thinking was going to leave Israel. Israel was going to live by the Never Again mantra, no matter what ethics and morality they had to throw to the curb to do it. Just look at all the Jews around the world traveling to Israel to help fight this war. These are normal Jews who could have continued living a safe life wherever they were. They are not the government. They are not making the military decisions. Yet, they know exactly what they are getting into and are flying to Israel to fight this brutal war. Because ... Never Again.
 
Is anyone else's reaction to all of thus just resignation? I'm not trying to pretend things were perfect in that area before this, but we had at least gone like two decades without a huge blowup (though certainly some moderate ones). And now we just added 50 years to the clock on whenever this whole thing will be resolved. Not to pretend we were close anyways, but wherever we were, this pushed it back further, and certainly out of my lifetime.
 
French Rage said:
Is anyone else's reaction to all of thus just resignation? I'm not trying to pretend things were perfect in that area before this, but we had at least gone like two decades without a huge blowup (though certainly some moderate ones). And now we just added 50 years to the clock on whenever this whole thing will be resolved. Not to pretend we were close anyways, but wherever we were, this pushed it back further, and certainly out of my lifetime.
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Sadly, yes. I noticed that within myself last week.

Way back, in the summer before my senior year in college, I spent six weeks in Israel. Part of that time was taking classes at Hebrew University. One of the classes was about propaganda, taught by a guy (whose regular job was as a professor at SUNY Oneonta) who was very well connected. He was able to get some amazing guest speakers to come in to talk to the class.

One of them was a professor at a Palestinian University, who was very levelheaded and interesting to listen to. At one point, when discussing the conflict, he said -- in a very matter of fact, non emotional, not taking sides voice -- the only solution he ever saw was when one side wiped out the other side.

Every time these flare ups occur, and especially when they go so over the edge like this one, I always think back to what he said. And how right he may be.
 
French Rage said:
Is anyone else's reaction to all of thus just resignation? I'm not trying to pretend things were perfect in that area before this, but we had at least gone like two decades without a huge blowup (though certainly some moderate ones). And now we just added 50 years to the clock on whenever this whole thing will be resolved. Not to pretend we were close anyways, but wherever we were, this pushed it back further, and certainly out of my lifetime.
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Pretty much. My wife and I were at brunch with a friend yesterday, we were talking about the news, and Israel/Hamas came up. Friend's comment was, "I know I'm way oversimplifying this issue, but when my daughters fought over a toy, or a dress, or whatever, I didn't try to pick sides. I simply took the object away from both of them."

So I concur with nuking the entire Levant from orbit. They can fight over who gets the remaining ashes and the giant cockroaches in 500 years after the Geiger counters stop furiously click-clicketying away.
 
FadeToBlack&Gold said:
Pretty much. My wife and I were at brunch with a friend yesterday, we were talking about the news, and Israel/Hamas came up. Friend's comment was, "I know I'm way oversimplifying this issue, but when my daughters fought over a toy, or a dress, or whatever, I didn't try to pick sides. I simply took the object away from both of them."

So I concur with nuking the entire Levant from orbit. They can fight over who gets the remaining ashes and the giant cockroaches in 500 years after the Geiger counters stop furiously click-clicketying away.
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Give it back to El and Baal worshippers. Monotheists had their chance.

Sorry, just finished reading "The Source" a couple months back.
 
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