Unrest in Egypt

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I'm not sure how democracy's failure to date in the Middle East has to do with some sort of Orwellian drift here in the States.

To the extent that there isn't a disenfranchised population to recruit terrorists from, we might be able to deflect our march towards an internal surveillance state. State actors can still be dangerous but in a different way than non-state actors -- a way that doesn't erode the wall between civilian freedoms and defensive alertness.

History always moves forward so even as these challenges change we won't be recapturing a golden age but moving towards something new (with its own nightmares, no doubt).

It would also be A Good Thing if the next cycle of the eternal wheel of life didn't break us so neatly into warring camps of right and left. I much prefer those times in our history when you couldn't easily predict somebody's foreign policy preferences from their domestic policy allegiances. That sort of "matrixing" encourages us all to think rather than just snarl from separate mental cages.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Ummmmm..... Wasn't the Holoclaust pretty much the deciding factor in letting the Jews take over control of Palistine and rename it Isreal and fly the star of David above it? I know that there was an effort by the Jews to move there and start a Jewish state there, but nobody was going to sign off on that until they found out what happened in those camps.

And that's a reason for people, in this case Palestinians, to deny it happened, and to avoid teaching it to their children at all costs? I guess there's more people around the world than I thought who don't think people should know history and have more understanding of those around them who aren't the same as them. And people think that's fine apparently. My bad.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I don't think you understood my analogy.

I understood that you took a petty cheapshot instead of addressing the subject raised, as you're prone to do on occasion.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

To the extent that there isn't a disenfranchised population to recruit terrorists from, we might be able to deflect our march towards an internal surveillance state. State actors can still be dangerous but in a different way than non-state actors -- a way that doesn't erode the wall between civilian freedoms and defensive alertness.

History always moves forward so even as these challenges change we won't be recapturing a golden age but moving towards something new (with its own nightmares, no doubt).

It would also be A Good Thing if the next cycle of the eternal wheel of life didn't break us so neatly into warring camps of right and left. I much prefer those times in our history when you couldn't easily predict somebody's foreign policy preferences from their domestic policy allegiances. That sort of "matrixing" encourages us all to think rather than just snarl from separate mental cages.

We have little control over how disenfranchised 800 million or a billion Muslims in that swath of the world are. That region of the world is a mess in many ways, and would be regardless of our level of involvement. I'm sure we all agree our country could react to this type of stuff better, but that's always easy to say and a lot harder to do.

Agreed that it'd be nice to not be so divided on everything, but that boat seems to have sailed awhile ago, and it's hard to see it returning to port.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Given the Middle East's history, I'm not sure a solid case can be made that democracies, at least as they've operated there to date, are more stable or better, or serve their people better.

This is not directed at you Bob in any way, but this certainly flies in the face of everything we've been told about the purpose (and/or end game goal for that matter) of our presence within the Middle East.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

This is not directed at you Bob in any way, but this certainly flies in the face of everything we've been told about our presence within the Middle East.

We wish there would be nice, peace-loving, civil rights-respecting democracies all over the Middle East. I've just never been convinced that such a vision is very realistic with what has gone on there on the ground. Lots of folks don't think about or see things remotely like the U.S. does or how we ideally want things to be, and we have forgotten that to our own detriment a number of times in recent years.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

We wish there would be nice, peace-loving, civil rights-respecting democracies all over the Middle East. I've just never been convinced that such a vision is very realistic with what has gone on there on the ground. Lots of folks don't think about or see things remotely like the U.S. does or how we ideally want things to be, and we have forgotten that to our own detriment a number of times in recent years.

Sing it, brother!

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

We have little control over how disenfranchised 800 million or a billion Muslims in that swath of the world are. That region of the world is a mess in many ways, and would be regardless of our level of involvement. I'm sure we all agree our country could react to this type of stuff better, but that's always easy to say and a lot harder to do.

Agreed that it'd be nice to not be so divided on everything, but that boat seems to have sailed awhile ago, and it's hard to see it returning to port.

True, it would be nice to see themselves pull themselves out of their own slump. What I'm kinda surprized at is I don't think there has ever been any major effort ever to get the Oasis plan going.

A decent rail line from Cairo to Jerusalum to Istanbul to Tehran to Mecca would be pretty big for the whole region. You would have to get the Isrealies to sign off on it, but it would have a lot of benifits for them as well. At worst I'm sure you could at least get them to sign off on a rail line that crosses the southern tip of their country but doesn't have a stop there.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Sing it, brother!

I've always thought that Bush was highly unrealistic on this issue.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I've always thought that Bush was highly unrealistic on this issue.

I recognize you were not in the tank on Iraq the Model, even if you are getting delight thinking of Obama as both leftist (he isn't anything close to that unless your left wing begins with Romney) and anti-war (he isn't anywhere close to it, more's the pity -- he's depressingly more of a Cold War Liberal like Truman and JFK).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I recognize you were not in the tank on Iraq the Model, even if you are getting delight thinking of Obama as both leftist (he isn't anything close to that unless your left wing begins with Romney) and anti-war (he isn't anywhere close to it, more's the pity -- he's depressingly more of a Cold War Liberal like Truman and JFK).

I don't think I've ever delighted in anything about Obama. I'd say at times he's practical, at times he pushes very liberal ideas and policies. But, he does it relatively subtly, and the press either praises him or is silent, so I can understand that some have the perspective that he's to the right of Bill Clinton or something.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

But, he does it relatively subtly, and the press either praises him or is silent, so I can understand that some have the perspective that he's to the right of Bill Clinton or something.

Given there's an entire multi-billion dollar media industry built explicitly to brand anything short of Gilded Age laissez faire politics as "socialism," your concern that others have been hoodwinked is a tad ironic.

But I'm sure you only are escaped alone to tell the tale.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Given there's an entire multi-billion dollar media industry built explicitly to brand anything short of Gilded Age laissez faire politics as "socialism," your concern that others have been hoodwinked is a tad ironic.

But I'm sure you only are escaped alone to tell the tale.

Another denier that the media's deference to Obama continues. Take a moment to read how fawning many headlines written about him are. Just because a few folks like Rush and Beck don't sing his praises doesn't mean the vast majority of the media isn't Obama-friendly.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Another denier that the media's deference to Obama continues. Take a moment to read how fawning many headlines written about him are. Just because a few folks like Rush and Beck don't sing his praises doesn't mean the vast majority of the media isn't Obama-friendly.

Where "denier" means doesn't accept your thesis; check.

The great thing about the Echo Chamber is it makes people feel that there's an objective reality to their delusions, so if the majority doesn't agree with them every step of the way they're obviously in the tank. I'm sure readers of Conservapedia actually believe Creationism is science and anybody who says otherwise is "biased."

Their sincerity, however, doesn't mean they're not still full on it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Where "denier" means doesn't accept your thesis; check.

The great thing about the Echo Chamber is it makes people feel that there's an objective reality to their delusions, so if the majority doesn't agree with them every step of the way they're obviously in the tank. I'm sure readers of Conservapedia actually believe Creationism is science and anybody who says otherwise is "biased."

Their sincerity, however, doesn't mean they're not still full on it.

Now you're really wandering.

And what on earth does that first sentence mean? Guess it's that public school education of yours showing again!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Another denier that the media's deference to Obama continues. Take a moment to read how fawning many headlines written about him are. Just because a few folks like Rush and Beck don't sing his praises doesn't mean the vast majority of the media isn't Obama-friendly.

Where are all these headlines that say how great a president Obama is? List em and we'll compare to see just how over the top they are vs the right.

Or does that suddenly mean he's just that bad that he can't even get that liberal media on his side?

 

[bronconick]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

So, I know that the War Powers Act has never been challenged in court, because no one in Congress or the Executive branch really wants to know the answer, but is there anyone else that would have standing to take it to court and force them to obey the Constitution again? Some Army Lieutenant who's irritated that he's on his 5th rotation in Afghanistan in 7 years or something?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Where are all these headlines that say how great a president Obama is? List em and we'll compare to see just how over the top they are vs the right.

Or does that suddenly mean he's just that bad that he can't even get that liberal media on his side?

I'm not going to read the headlines for you. Look around. But, I can understand that you, who are a big Obama supporter, would just think they're being straight up when they fawn over Obama.

 

[Hopkinja]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Meanwhile, back on topic: The French have shot down a Libyan plane near Misrata. Per the BBC, it was a single engine G-2 Galeb (Yugoslav made) aircraft.

 

[bigmrg74]

Meanwhile, back on topic: The French have shot down a Libyan plane near Misrata. Per the BBC, it was a single engine G-2 Galeb (Yugoslav made) aircraft.

A Yugo plane? How ugly is that sucker?