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Unrest in Egypt

  • Thread starter Thread starter Priceless
  • Start date Start date
Re: Unrest in Egypt

Can somebody give me a rational reason why we're expending assets on this problem?

We dropped our bombs
And the terrorists kept a 'comin
There's alot more now then there was a while ago
We fired our guns
And then they came a runnin'
Across the Rio Grande
From dear ole Mexico!

-----
And it's 1 - 2 - 3 what are we fightin' four
Don't ask me I don't give a ****
The next stop is Afghanistan
And it's 5 - 6- 7 open up the pearly gates
Well there ain't much time to wonder why
Whoopee, we're all going to die!!
 
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Re: Unrest in Egypt

joecct said:
Can somebody give me a rational reason why we're expending assets on this problem?
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I'll give you a reason; you'll have to judge its rationality for yourself. The pro-democracy movements in the Arab world are the least expensive way for us to return to some sort of normalcy and end the security and warfare state we've been strangling ourselves with since 9/11. Letting Qaddafi massacre his people while doing nothing will severely damage those movements and play right into the Islamist-Neocon worldview. We're not invading and occupying Libya so it's a significantly smaller expenditure of assets. We're not in for a dime, in for a dollar -- nobody's going to be able to play the "you can't leave now because our brave boys' lives will have been in vain" sunk cost fallacy (as much as I'm sure they'll try).
 
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Re: Unrest in Egypt

Bob Gray said:
Just saying that the Arab League is one of the most feckless, least reliable international/regional organizations to hang your hat on. They have a long history of dithering amongst themselves on even relatively minor issues.
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So, it's the Arab UN? :p
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

And now the French are saying they don't really want this to be a NATO-led operation. They're concerned how it would appear in the Arab world, now that the Arab league has made some negative comments. Italy has said if it's not NATO-led, they'll take back their offer to use their airbases. The Turks are opposed (duh!) and Germany is not really interested in participating. Guess who's left holding the bag?

Stinking weasels!
 
Kepler said:
I'll give you a reason; you'll have to judge its rationality for yourself. The pro-democracy movements in the Arab world are the least expensive way for us to return to some sort of normalcy and end the security and warfare state we've been strangling ourselves with since 9/11. Letting Qaddafi massacre his people while doing nothing will severely damage those movements and play right into the Islamist-Neocon worldview. We're not invading and occupying Libya so it's a significantly smaller expenditure of assets. We're not in for a dime, in for a dollar -- nobody's going to be able to play the "you can't leave now because our brave boys' lives will have been in vain" sunk cost fallacy (as much as I'm sure they'll try).
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That, and with the new governments in Egypt and Tunisia, if there's not some outside backing of the Libyans, then they're ripe for some new tin horn dictator to take control in there. And it makes any other dictator want to sit there and dig in for the long hual instead of going gracefully when the people want him gone. Stepping in now makes the next one easier and raises the USA's cred on the Arab street, which is where the terrorist recruit from. Aiding a populuar revolution with some air support and logistics will do a lot more for us than what any nation building will do.
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

Kepler said:
I'll give you a reason; you'll have to judge its rationality for yourself. The pro-democracy movements in the Arab world are the least expensive way for us to return to some sort of normalcy and end the security and warfare state we've been strangling ourselves with since 9/11. Letting Qaddafi massacre his people while doing nothing will severely damage those movements and play right into the Islamist-Neocon worldview. We're not invading and occupying Libya so it's a significantly smaller expenditure of assets. We're not in for a dime, in for a dollar -- nobody's going to be able to play the "you can't leave now because our brave boys' lives will have been in vain" sunk cost fallacy (as much as I'm sure they'll try).
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You really think these pro-democracy movements take us toward normalcy in the Middle East? I don't think anyone has any idea where this is taking them. These are countries with little or no experience with democracy, and, apart from Israel, democracy hasn't had a good track record in the region. I can't say I've heard anyone claim that this is some sort of stability on a budget program for the region, other than you.
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

Bob Gray said:
You really think these pro-democracy movements take us toward normalcy in the Middle East? I don't think anyone has any idea where this is taking them. These are countries with little or no experience with democracy, and, apart from Israel, democracy hasn't had a good track record in the region. I can't say I've heard anyone claim that this is some sort of stability on a budget program for the region, other than you.
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Well, it might help if you read somebody other than Poderholtz and Kristal. :)

As you say, nobody knows where they are going, but it's in our interest for Arabs and the non-Arab Middle East to have democratically-elected governments to whine about like we do. If nothing else, it gives the crazies local targets so they'll leave the Scottsdale Bed, Bath and Beyond alone.

And I said "normalcy," anyway. While it would be nice if these people were able to throw off their petrodollar dictatorships, I'm primarily concerned with stopping our bipartisan drift to an Orwellian state back home. Terrorism thrives in failed states with desperate populations clinging to Millennialist philosophies (Yemen, Afghanistan, South Carolina). The more we can do to reduce the threat coming from those places, the better.
 
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Re: Unrest in Egypt

Kepler said:
Well, it might help if you read somebody other than Poderholtz and Kristal. :)

As you say, nobody knows where they are going, but it's in our interest for Arabs and the non-Arab Middle East to have democratically-elected governments to whine about like we do. If nothing else, it gives the crazies local targets so they'll leave the Scottsdale Bed, Bath and Beyond alone.

And I said "normalcy," anyway. While it would be nice if these people were able to throw off their petrodollar dictatorships, I'm primarily concerned with stopping our bipartisan drift to an Orwellian state back home. Terrorism thrives in failed states with desperate populations clinging to Millennialist philosophies (Yemen, Afghanistan, South Carolina). The more we can do to reduce the threat coming from those places, the better.
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Who is Poderholz? Guess if you're recommending him, he must be a good read!:p

Given the Middle East's history, I'm not sure a solid case can be made that democracies, at least as they've operated there to date, are more stable or better, or serve their people better. Hamas being elected in Gaza and then attacking opposition and continuing to go after Israel (just saw that article about lobbing lots of missiles into southern Israel the other day) is such a great result or a good "normalcy". I don't expect to see more legit elections in Gaza anytime soon. Really, it's hard to even define what "normalcy" is, in the context of the Middle East. I'm not sure how democracy's failure to date in the Middle East has to do with some sort of Orwellian drift here in the States.
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

Bob Gray said:
Sometimes a story comes along that reminds you just how differently folks think about things over there. This one about how Hamas is going ballistic at the U.N. for considering mentioning the Holocaust to kids in Gaza as part of U.N. education efforts there.

http://http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/03/22/20110322hamas-protests-holocaust-classroom-teaching22-ON.html
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Time to channel Foxton:

I'm shocked a fundamentalist religious sect would want facts suppressed during a child's education. Glad that stuff doesn't happen here in America.
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

Rimbaud said:
Time to channel Foxton:

I'm shocked a fundamentalist religious sect would want facts suppressed during a child's education. Glad that stuff doesn't happen here in America.
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Hamas appreciates your support. :rolleyes:
 
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Bob Gray said:
Sometimes a story comes along that reminds you just how differently folks think about things over there. This one about how Hamas is going ballistic at the U.N. for considering mentioning the Holocaust to kids in Gaza as part of U.N. education efforts there.

http://http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/03/22/20110322hamas-protests-holocaust-classroom-teaching22-ON.html
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Ummmmm..... Wasn't the Holoclaust pretty much the deciding factor in letting the Jews take over control of Palistine and rename it Isreal and fly the star of David above it? I know that there was an effort by the Jews to move there and start a Jewish state there, but nobody was going to sign off on that until they found out what happened in those camps.
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

hard to pin down the goal of this action in Libya from the American side... is France to whom we have to look for in leadership in the free world? :eek: Smart power indeed.... when in doubt, punt!
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

Patman said:
hard to pin down the goal of this action in Libya from the American side... is France to whom we have to look for in leadership in the free world? :eek: Smart power indeed.... when in doubt, punt!
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I dunno, I think it's about f*king time one of these other countries stood up and did something instead of just incessantly *****ing about it.

Whether they decide to stick it through and face the criticisms they've doled out over the years against the US or punt it back on first down is another issue.
 
Re: Unrest in Egypt

dxmnkd316 said:
I dunno, I think it's about f*king time one of these other countries stood up and did something instead of just incessantly *****ing about it.

Whether they decide to stick it through and face the criticisms they've doled out over the years against the US or punt it back on first down is another issue.
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Kinda suprised that doesn't sound familiar. Its a version of the same paralysis we have in our government. You learn to operate in that environment...or you ignore it as W often did.
 
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