Unrest in Egypt

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I'm all confused. I was simply agreeing with your knowledge of my IQ. What "card" are you referring to?

Really? You're going to try to bluff it out?

Ok. The victim card, pioneered by talk radio and now seemingly perfected by the GOP establishment, works like this:

A: "A lot of people pretending to be conservatives aren't smart, or are very smart but play dumb. They even glory in it and sneer at anything intellectual. It's their way of playing on class resentments."

B: "All liberals always say all conservatives are dumb. It's their elitism."

A: "Nice try. I just specifically said some conservatives, and I even qualified it by saying a lot of what passes for "conservative" in the Echo Chamber isn't at all, and in fact many serious conservatives think it's just some bizarre offshoot of anti-intellectual populism -- one that indeed used to be popular in liberal circles."

B: "See? He's saying it again! Waaaa!"

A: "Wait. What?"

The right's been playing that game going on 30 years, now. It's completely dishonest and empty but it works great when 99% of your audience hears what it wants to hear and you control the microphone.

Which, here, you do not.

 

[geezer]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Really? You're going to try to bluff it out?

No, I'm very serious. You said I need to "check with the smart conservatives". I said yeah, I'm not the brightest guy around. That's not a "victim card", I was just agreeing with what you said about me specifically.

edit: OK, I gotcha. I said "cause I'm conservative". I was trying to think of how you might have known this about me, and that's all you know about me. sorry.

edit: unrest in Egypt, indeed.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

No, I'm very serious. You said I need to "check with the smart conservatives". I said yeah, I'm not the brightest guy around. That's not a "victim card", I was just agreeing with what you said about me specifically.

edit: OK, I gotcha. I said "cause I'm conservative". I was trying to think of how you might have known this about me, and that's all you know about me. sorry.

edit: unrest in Egypt, indeed.

Oh. You took the "few" in my statement as a personal slam? No, I didn't mean it like that, and I'm very sorry if it came across that way. Genuinely.

I was slamming the Echo Chamber, not you.

To be clear, it's not "Conservatism (Hume, Burke, Oakeshott, Kirk, Bob Taft, Buckley, Reagan, Frum) is stupid." It's "Stupid fake conservatism (Ailes, Limbaugh, pretty much the entire American south since 1976, Palin) is stupid."

And no, I'm not sure how we got here either. Back to Egypt, er, Libya...

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I'd be curious for you to explain what you mean by the tools available, nature of that support, and battlefield on wich Democracy is fought play into young Americans being as appreciative of Democracy as older generations. I think that young Americans have grown up in an economically successful era where they haven't had to concern themselves about such things, as democracy around them has never been under any major outward threat, so I don't think a lot of them even really think about it much. Yes, there are some that do, but those are the exceptions in my experience. Of course part of it is just maturing and getting older and gaining more perspective on life in general.

Sure...

So for past generations, the battle for Democracy was more frequently fought with guns...today, its more frequently fought with public opinion and the internet. Mubaraks fall would likely not have occurred if this were 1970...and Brezhnev would have just crushed the kind of Russian free thinking that even Putin has to manage.

Americans pretty much support Democracy across the board. So when you say older generations are more appreciative than young...your really saying that the younger generation is the exception and is unappreciative. And I don't think that's true. So the big thing is that today Democracy is kind of the default standard. So its probably better said that today's youth just don't think much about it.

So case in point...in the Egypt situation, America's youth from what I could tell was almost 100% behind the revolt and their internet counterparts. That wasn't necessarily the case with the older generation...there were a decent number of older, conservative pundits who decried the fact that we were bailing on 'our old friends' and that it sends the wrong message to other governments we support. These older Americans were putting relationships with dictators above a push for Democracy.

I do just see that that older Americans are similar not less interested in Democracy though...as older Americans were more quick to set up an occuption to enforce Democracy in Iraq than younger generations. In this case, the older generation was using the tools, nature of its support and battlefield of guns as it was accustomed to enforce Democracy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Part of it is the fight that's on offer, and that's a mixed bag. The "Greatest Generation" that endured the Depression and fought in WW2 was also the generation that scoffed at the women's movement, perpetuated terrible injustices against racial minorities, and did more to destroy the environment that any in history. We get misty-eyed over them because people always love and are a little in awe of their parents and grandparents. But for all the good there's bad. (And for all the bad, good.)

Anyway, there is no such thing as a "great generation." The only meaningful unit of analysis is the person. There are great people, but even those people are a complicated mixture.

Better to just thank people for their tremendous individual sacrifices and bravery -- that's why we used to erect statues. That and being able to say "erect" in a public gathering.

5mn, I do think older people talk more the language of "Democracy" and "freedom" than younger people. The old, decrepit, get off my lawn part of me feels like older public narratives in movies and songs used to stress these terms, while contemporary narratives are about other things. Or it may simply be that the face of American culture used to be extremely well-scrubbed, and now it includes all those Have Nots we used to push under the rug. Anyway, it does seem like it has changed, and not for the better.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

5mn, I do think older people talk more the language of "Democracy" and "freedom" than younger people. The old, decrepit, get off my lawn part of me feels like older public narratives in movies and songs used to stress these terms, while contemporary narratives are about other things. Or it may simply be that the face of American culture used to be extremely well-scrubbed, and now it includes all those Have Nots we used to push under the rug. Anyway, it does seem like it has changed, and not for the better.

I hear what youre saying. But see post below...ie thinking about something vs appreciation.

Another example of this is terrorism. 7 years ago we were all thinking about terrorism daily. There was talk on the news, government addresses and movement in the terror level. Today, we don't think of terrorism that much...there's just other things going on. That doesn't mean that we don't really appreciate the danger of terrorism.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Ah...another thread that has turned into this crap. And here I thought maybe there was enough going on in the world to actually discuss that and not try and pretend either of your political views have more merit than the other. Silly me...

Carry on I will show myself out.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I hear what youre saying. But see post below...ie thinking about something vs appreciation.

Another example of this is terrorism. 7 years ago we were all thinking about terrorism daily. There was talk on the news, government addresses and movement in the terror level. Today, we don't think of terrorism that much...there's just other things going on. That doesn't mean that we don't really appreciate the danger of terrorism.

I think a lot about things I appreciate. I don't think so much about things I don't appreciate as much. It's perfectly natural. It may not be a conscious thing for younger folks to not be as appreciative (I didn't say they weren't appreciative at all, as you assumed). It's just natural that when people sacrificed a brother or uncle in WW2 for freedom and democracy that it would resound more deeply in them than someone who hasn't made such a sacrifice.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I don't think so much about things I don't appreciate as much.

Youre alive. You probably don't think about it much (most don't)...but you probably appreciate it more than anything.

There are many things that folks appreciate very much that they don't think about frequently...and thats IMO the case for the youth and appreciation of Democracy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

It's just natural that when people sacrificed a brother or uncle in WW2 for freedom and democracy that it would resound more deeply in them than someone who hasn't made such a sacrifice.

This makes perfect sense.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

There yet may be an invasion.

 

[bigmrg74]

There yet may be an invasion.

You would think Quddaffi would be as happy as heck about the mess in Japan. That helps to direct more international media that way and let's him get away with whatever he wants there in Libya. Sooner or later somebody needs to step up and do something there. Given that it's where the Euros get a lot of their oil, it is well in there sphere of influence, and well, the USA is probably going to be focusing on helping out Japan, they could do it pretty easily.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The Boys from Bahrain sure stepped it up after Japan hit the news. To give Quaddafi credit (if that's the word), he was massacring his people even when he was on the front page.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

You would think Quddaffi would be as happy as heck about the mess in Japan. That helps to direct more international media that way and let's him get away with whatever he wants there in Libya. Sooner or later somebody needs to step up and do something there. Given that it's where the Euros get a lot of their oil, it is well in there sphere of influence, and well, the USA is probably going to be focusing on helping out Japan, they could do it pretty easily.

Doing things militarily is never easy for Europe these days. And their capabilities aren't nearly what they used to be. I wonder if Europe could even pull off a full-fledged no fly zone without help from the U.S. It does sound like Obama's talking a lot tougher, now that the rebels are in a bad spot. Whether any action will follow the tough talk is anybody's guess.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The Economist, delight of geeks everywhere, puts out an interesting Shoe Throwers' Index.

Seems to me Bahrain should be a lot more stable than some other countries with apparently less of a protest movement (Syria in particular).

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The Economist, delight of geeks everywhere, puts out an interesting Shoe Throwers' Index.

Seems to me Bahrain should be a lot more stable than some other countries with apparently less of a protest movement (Syria in particular).

Interesting. I wonder if they have rankings for the rest of the world. Funny to see someone like Lebanon among the least likely to have unrest, but that goes to being compared against the rest of the folks on that list.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Interesting. I wonder if they have rankings for the rest of the world. Funny to see someone like Lebanon among the least likely to have unrest, but that goes to being compared against the rest of the folks on that list.

Back before Tom Friedman was a sad drag act of his former self, he wrote a lot of readable stuff about Lebanon. It was blessed for quite a long time with a large middle class, a more shall we say industrious work ethic than a lot of the Middle East, a lot of European investment capital, and religious and political tolerance and peace. That's been shattered by playing the role of Belgium in the interminable regional wars and occupations, but at least there were stable institutions once.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Back before Tom Friedman was a sad drag act of his former self, he wrote a lot of readable stuff about Lebanon. It was blessed for quite a long time with a large middle class, a more shall we say industrious work ethic than a lot of the Middle East, a lot of European investment capital, and religious and political tolerance and peace. That's been shattered by playing the role of Belgium in the interminable regional wars and occupations, but at least there were stable institutions once.

Yah, Lebanon is a pretty tragic country, with all the factions and outside players messing things up. Beirut was once quite a place.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Yah, Lebanon is a pretty tragic country, with all the factions and outside players messing things up. Beirut was once quite a place.

"The Paris of the East." Well, one of them anyway.

There are so many places in the Middle East and North Africa I'd love to visit. Is it too much to ask that during my lifetime it will be safe to do so? They have about 40 years...

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

"The Paris of the East." Well, one of them anyway.

There are so many places in the Middle East and North Africa I'd love to visit. Is it too much to ask that during my lifetime it will be safe to do so? They have about 40 years...

Good luck!