Unrest in Egypt

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Yemeni tribes have been fighting each other since before the Ottomans ran the territory. That was why what T.E. Lawrence did was so amazing. He actually got the Arabs to stop fighting each other long enough to create "nations."

But unless they have a common enemy, they'll fall back to fighting each other. Only a matter of time in Libya, too.

Meh. Who says the nation-state is a sensible unit of organization for everybody? It's the Finns jumping over the PSTN and going directly from mail to cellular -- the Arabs may jump 400 years ahead and go directly from tribes to non-state anarchic local self-government. If Allah's everywhere He's in cyberspace too.

(I've always thought Catholicism would work out very well as a Virtual Reality. What is Mother Church but a daemon emulating advanced City of God programs on a crummy legacy City of Man OS? But I'm sure some clever sci-fi author has beaten me to it.)

 

[Patman]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

(Likud's worst nightmare is a rational, democratic Arab world. There are enough intelligent Israelis that the hard right will be out of there like **** through a goose.)

This of course is only second to their fear of unicorns, gryphons, and leprachauns. Your Jewish/Christian fearmongering is legendary.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Battle for Libya intensifies

Sounding more and more like the anti-government rebels there would really like to see the no-fly zone put in. Perhaps not even a full fledged no fly zone, but put a few other birds up over Libya, high enough where most anti-aircraft guns can't hit them. That would be enough to make the guys that are flying the jets and helicopter gunships just a bit more nervous and not so willing to keep up this pointless fight. And those that do fight, they would be a little more likely to fly lower, where they would be more vulnerable to ground anti-aircraft guns.

 

[Patman]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I've seen reports that Obama is asking for Saudi Arabia to give weapons to the Libyan rebels... which if true, makes Obama catastrophically stupid... unless there's a caveat to this (**** the jews) there's no reason saudi arabia would want to help out the rebels when facing up against possible problems at home... and then there's the whole chicken **** nature of this... we want to be involved with weapons but we also don't want to be involved with weapons... does anybody else get the feeling that its amateur hour at the white house and they're just scratching around for idea that meet certain political constraints that they're trying to thread? The only other thought is that Obama wants to side with Gadaffi... because I would figure that the Saudis would want to enter on Gadaffi's side and not for the rebels.

Smart power.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I've seen reports that Obama is asking for Saudi Arabia to give weapons to the Libyan rebels... which if true, makes Obama catastrophically stupid... unless there's a caveat to this (**** the jews) there's no reason saudi arabia would want to help out the rebels when facing up against possible problems at home... and then there's the whole chicken **** nature of this... we want to be involved with weapons but we also don't want to be involved with weapons... does anybody else get the feeling that its amateur hour at the white house and they're just scratching around for idea that meet certain political constraints that they're trying to thread? The only other thought is that Obama wants to side with Gadaffi... because I would figure that the Saudis would want to enter on Gadaffi's side and not for the rebels.

Smart power.

Could be...

but no president in memory has received more bs rumors that turned out to be both wrong and politically motivated in order to make them look bad...yet are automatically assumed to be true by the right. I think we all are old enough to remember how the right on this site fell hook, line, sinker behind Kyl's accusations of Obama (which of course turned out to be false).

In the end, right wing media needs to be blamed for right wingers themselves having weak regard for hard fact.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

In the end, right wing media needs to be blamed for right wingers themselves having weak regard for hard fact.

Though the hatred industry is in part to blame, much of this is just the nature of knuckledraggerism. Russell Kirk, the father of modern conservatism and a guy with more wit and brains in one finger than the last 2 generations of conservative "intellectuals" have had in their entire being, used to say "by no means are all or even most conservatives idiots. But nearly all idiots are conservatives." It's a magnet for the worst, and the best are always embarrassed about their bedfellows.

Unfortunately, the generation of principled conservatives like Buckley who gave cretins no quarter even if they dependably voted "R" is long dead. All that's left on that side of the aisle are either pure charlatans or, even worse, realpolitik opportunists who preach Reagan's cynical 11th commandment. Well, I suppose here are a smattering of libertarians like Ron and Rand who are, however misguided, at least honest. But conservatives as a rule have a dark underbelly they appeal to for votes but wouldn't dream of letting into their area code.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I've seen reports that Obama is asking for Saudi Arabia to give weapons to the Libyan rebels... which if true, makes Obama catastrophically stupid... unless there's a caveat to this (**** the jews) there's no reason saudi arabia would want to help out the rebels when facing up against possible problems at home... and then there's the whole chicken **** nature of this... we want to be involved with weapons but we also don't want to be involved with weapons... does anybody else get the feeling that its amateur hour at the white house and they're just scratching around for idea that meet certain political constraints that they're trying to thread? The only other thought is that Obama wants to side with Gadaffi... because I would figure that the Saudis would want to enter on Gadaffi's side and not for the rebels.

Smart power.

I dunno. If the rumor is true, it sounds like Obama is channeling his inner Reagan.

You'll know if they're serious if they authorize NATO intervention. This no-fly nonsense is just rhetoric to make ourselves feel better. It's the we have to "do something" approach to foreign policy. It isn't completely pointless, but it's not going to tip the balance. It just reduces the number of options Qadaffi has for massacring his citizens.

Congrats, rebels. Your children had their abdomens torn in half by ground-based artillery rather than airborne.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Congrats, rebels. Your children had their abdomens torn in half by ground-based artillery rather than airborne.

I'm not sure how you enforce a no fly zone unless you are willing to take out AA batteries, and that's a LOT more intrusive than just patrolling for Libyan aircraft. Particularly because AA installations are often tucked in between the kindergarten and the orphan's hospital.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

That's just it. Most of the rationalizations that I've heard for no-fly start from the assumption that it would be relatively (in military terms) low-cost.

That's only true if it's a blatant half-measure.

I'm not normally a "world is black and white" sort of guy, but when it comes to military intervention, I think you're either in or out. There is no point in doing it half-way.

Trying to police Qadaffi's forces from several thousand feet strikes me a recipe for failure. And that's at best. At worst, it fails to knock him out of power and an errant American bomb or two erase whatever shred of goodwill we manage to build up.

 

[walrus]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Let the UN enforce a no fly zone, keep NATO out of it. We don't need another war front because thats what it would end up being

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Not sure about that. UN means security council means Russia/China veto.

Even if they could be "persuaded" to support a no-fly zone, which isn't certain, I'm not sure it would be worth spending the political capital that it would cost.

That's why I fall on the side of NATO. Pick a side, win, and live with the consequences. Or don't.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Let the UN enforce a no fly zone, keep NATO out of it. We don't need another war front because thats what it would end up being

I like getting the UN on this. Going forward this type of stuff should all be UN.

There are a lot of countries out there that really want this...this time around...so not sure how much political capital it would take to get this moving. I don't see Russia being a big problem...they are not too democratic, but are very concerned about Russian public opinion nonetheless. China is the big question mark. But if that's the case, let it go to a vote and have the Chinese get the face egg they would deserve.

 

[geezer]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Do Something.

 

[bigmrg74]

Do Something.

You know, it would be nice to see one of the Euro's step up and start handling this. Even if it's nothing more than some flyovers, it would be a big help to the rebels. And if one of them is a NATO country and they would happen to have a plane shot down, then wouldn't that be a reason to get all of NATO in as well.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

You know, it would be nice to see one of the Euro's step up and start handling this. Even if it's nothing more than some flyovers, it would be a big help to the rebels. And if one of them is a NATO country and they would happen to have a plane shot down, then wouldn't that be a reason to get all of NATO in as well.

Which is one reason no one will do anything. What country wants to be the one to drag everyone else to war?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The US shouldn't do a ****ed thing militarily. Tell Europe to start carrying its weight or tell it to "bugger off". When does the rest of the world start chipping in?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The US shouldn't do a ****ed thing militarily. Tell Europe to start carrying its weight or tell it to "bugger off". When does the rest of the world start chipping in?

The guy who swings the cudgel makes the rules. You think we've been throwing our weight around for fifty years out of kindness?

There's a 57-member Islamic nations coalition out there that should do this. If the US or Europeans take military action it will be seen as hypocritical (we supported dictators for generations to keep the lid on) or a neo-colonial power grab like Iraq.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The guy who swings the cudgel makes the rules. You think we've been throwing our weight around for fifty years out of kindness?

Nope. But I think it's funny that we're the world police and china is the one making off like a bandit.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Nope. But I think it's funny that we're the world police and china is the one making off like a bandit.

The guys who decide our policies are making out like bandits. Our geopolitics is a machine that converts upper middle class taxes and lower middle class troop lives into extra wealth for the top 1%, which is an international class that transcends quaint notions like patriotism.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Nope. But I think it's funny that we're the world police and china is the one making off like a bandit.

That's why you put it to the UN...and with strong international support, ask China if they're really going to veto it.