Unrest in Egypt

[Patman]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Egyptian State TV is not showing the crowds anymore. Go figure.

The army had stated earlier that "the people's demands will be granted." Either there is a major disconnect or there's a split in the regime.

AJE reporting that people are chanting that the army needs to choose which side they're on, and now there are reports that crowds are marching to the main army barracks to circumvent the government and talk directly to the army. Hopefully they aren't provocative about it.

Two things

1) "The people" are never a monolith... and I'm shocked you assume so... what we're probably seeing is the protesters who tend to run secular and educated and have general day-to-day concerns... but don't assume that it is as such and will remain as such

2) "the army" is certainly not a monolith and these situations of power shifting and fracturing will blur many lines...

I wouldn't be surpised if this all goes down as one whole bag of murky... this game is being played at various levels by various people... for those of you waxing philisophic, this could go anywhere from military despotism (status quo) to tepid Turkish style Islamic-democracy, to a quasi-religious state.

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And I assume when you mean "the French will be burning the cars" you don't really mean the French as most would imagine but "the Algerians in France"

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Can't help but get behind Obama's statement.

Obama's point of view is also important in the larger picture. Stuff like this helps to form international culture...both in terms of just who the US is and how important the rule of the people is. Regardless of what happens in Egypt, its quite likely this has been a positive event for worldwide democracy.

Edit: an analyst made an interesting point that terror is getting further sidelined as a result of these events...the last decade's emersion in a societal war on terror could be moving to join the cold war in the dust bin of history.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Two things

1) "The people" are never a monolith... and I'm shocked you assume so... what we're probably seeing is the protesters who tend to run secular and educated and have general day-to-day concerns...

Of course, we've pointed that out many times below. And as AJE and BBC have both pointed out the rural and uneducated populations tend to only get their news through one highly orchestrated, nationalistic, and simplistic source (huh*) and may not be aware of the size or even the basic motivations of the protests. There was a great interview a couple days ago with a protester who had come to protest in favor of Mubarak because State TV was saying all the protesters were outside agitators who, and this is one of the greatest quotes in political history, "took orders from Tel Aviv and sat around all day eating Kentucky Fried Chicken." When she saw "nobody was eating Kentucky Fried Chicken" it all clicked that State TV had been lying.

2) "the army" is certainly not a monolith and these situations of power shifting and fracturing will blur many lines...

I wouldn't be surpised if this all goes down as one whole bag of murky... this game is being played at various levels by various people... for those of you waxing philisophic, this could go anywhere from military despotism (status quo) to tepid Turkish style Islamic-democracy, to a quasi-religious state.

Nobody's saying anything different. Don't be nervous, it still may all fall apart and the fear campaign can regain a little legitimacy. And no matter what happens there will always be a way to reimagine it to avoid righty cognitive dissonance.

And I assume when you mean "the French will be burning the cars" you don't really mean the French as most would imagine but "the Algerians in France"

Because the farmers from the south of France who block the roads and strike every time ag subsidies are cut back are Arabs, sure... See above.*

 

[Priceless]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Of course, we've pointed that out many times below. And as AJE and BBC have both pointed out the rural and uneducated populations tend to only get their news through one highly orchestrated, nationalistic, and simplistic source (huh*) and may not be aware of the size or even the basic motivations of the protests. There was a great interview a couple days ago with a protester who had come to protest in favor of Mubarak because State TV was saying all the protesters were outside agitators who, and this is one of the greatest quotes in political history, "took orders from Tel Aviv and sat around all day eating Kentucky Fried Chicken." When she saw "nobody was eating Kentucky Fried Chicken" it all clicked that State TV had been lying.



Nobody's saying anything different. Don't be nervous, it still may all fall apart and the fear campaign can regain a little legitimacy. And no matter what happens there will always be a way to reimagine it to avoid righty cognitive dissonance.



Because the farmers from the south of France who block the roads and strike every time ag subsidies are cut back are Arabs, sure... See above.*

Don't bring logic into this. He has to be afraid of something.

Hey Patman,

Boo!

(Just trying to help)

A sample of the feed:

Al-Ahram says only 5 anchors working at State TV, no one can come or go because of "siege" by demonstrators. No mention it's peaceful

AJE: Showing view across Nile, protesters streaming across bridges towards #Tahrir and TV Building

Crowd pressure pushes down stretch of barbed-wire fence front of State TV, then pulls it back, chanting "silmiya" "peaceful"

Protesters at Maspero have already established inspection lines and a medical point, showing they're in control of the area now.

injuries, deaths, clashes happened only when pro-mubarak demos and regime thugs showed up in the streets.

Crowd swelling dramatically in front of State TV. Estimate 15,000...and growing. coming from #Tahrir, 6 Oct bridge.

Edit:

#Egypt TV: "Important and Urgent Communique from the Presidency of the Republic Shortly."

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Suleiman just announced in a one sentence statement that Mubarak has stepped down and handed control to the army.

 

[aparch]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Amazing footage from the AJE showing how jubilant the protesters are. It's a shame that they were unable to recover from having their Cairo studios ransacked by Mubarak's thugs to really get the local feel for this.


I guess the next question is, now what? They got what they wanted, the government has already offered concessions and (say they) will remove "emergency" laws that have been on the books for 30 years. Will Suleiman follow through, or was this just smoke blown to try and appease the crowds?

I sorta wonder how StateTV is spinning this situation.


*edit* I just saw on the AJE crawl that a "council of armed forces" have taken over control. Does that mean that Mubarak's underlings (including Suleiman and the cabinet) are powerless?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Suleiman just announced in a one sentence statement that Mubarak has stepped down and handed control to the army.

So many cool positive outcomes in this one...including the power of people and the power of peaceful demonstration.

Although it was rude that he couldn't wait to stand down until primetime US time so everyone could watch.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I guess the next question is, now what? They got what they wanted, the government has already offered concessions and (say they) will remove "emergency" laws that have been on the books for 30 years. Will Suleiman follow through, or was this just smoke blown to try and appease the crowds?

Many a sip twixt the cup and the lip, but this is certainly another big step forward. The next logical step will be organizing elections. The crowd will probably disperse now, the military will have temporary custody of the state. And the question is, will we just get the next strongman or a true transition to civilian rule?

The work will only get harder since the jockeying for power will start. But that's the price of at least trying for popular sovereignty. Without any history of democratic institutions in Egypt it will be much harder than in Eastern Europe, but it's gladdening to see.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

So far this has happened about as peacefully as could be hoped. Truly amazing.

Note to Tea Party "patriots"
This is what a modern revolution looks like - notice the lack of guns? The Egyptians didn't need a "second Amendment remedy" they just relied on people power.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

So far this has happened about as peacefully as could be hoped. Truly amazing.

Note to Tea Party "patriots"
This is what a modern revolution looks like - notice the lack of guns? The Egyptians didn't need a "second Amendment remedy" they just relied on people power.

Good call. That's another benefit. It shows how the true need of the 2nd Amendment as identified by the founding fathers...to keep power in the hands of the people...has become obsolete.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

So...it would seem Mubarak's attempt to fan the flames eaglebunny!!! style failed. I wonder who called him and basically told him to shut up and step down he has failed.

 

[alfablue]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Been reading this thread for the entire time...

All I can say is - wow, how things change quickly.

 

[geezer]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Good call. That's another benefit. It shows how the true need of the 2nd Amendment as identified by the founding fathers...to keep power in the hands of the people...has become obsolete.

You couldn't be more wrong. Can you imagine what would've happened to minorities in Rwanda, or the Balkans, or Iran or Iraq quite recently if they didn't own guns? Oh wait, they didn't, you can't. Cause they're dead.
The Egyptian people are doing a great thing and have a chance for a positive outcome, but look who has all the power right now. Yep, the people with the guns. Hopefully they're nice because the generals are going to have their way.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Except for the entire military that they had behind them, this was totally about people power.

 

[geezer]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Except for the entire military that they had behind them, this was totally about people power.

I get the sarcasm, but is the military really willing to uphold the will of the people or will they just stick their next thug in charge? We shall see.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

it would be wonderful to have a third democracy in the Middle East. hoping so. this still has a long way to go.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

Except for the entire military that they had behind them, this was totally about people power.

You mean this military?

Kareem Amer: Army tortured prisoners, flogged, electrocuted, drowned them in cold water

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

I get the sarcasm, but is the military really willing to uphold the will of the people or will they just stick their next thug in charge? We shall see.

The military *is* the people in this case, no?

This wasn't a military junta (love that word). This was a popular uprising that would have required military action to put down, the military shook its head, and Mubarak saw the writing on the wall.

Or am I mistaken?

(Asked sincerely. I've been up to my receding hairline in work lately.)

 

[Priceless]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The military *is* the people in this case, no?

This wasn't a military junta (love that word). This was a popular uprising that would have required military action to put down, the military shook its head, and Mubarak saw the writing on the wall.

Or am I mistaken?

(Asked sincerely. I've been up to my receding hairline in work lately.)

The military is basically the referee in a fight between the regime and the people. The army only took sides marginally and on both sides. When Mubarak realized that the military wasn't going to shoot the protesters, that he couldn't rally enough counter-protesters and the mass of the protesters weren't going to take the bait and resort to violence, he had no other choice. If he didn't leave he would eventually be killed or imprisoned.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Unrest in Egypt

The latest

"After 'Victory Friday' in Tunisia & 'Liberation Friday' in Egypt Gaddafi has decided to abolish all Fridays"

BREAKING: Al Jazeera: Switzerland foreign ministry announces that all Mubarak's assets are frozen.

Translation of official statement by #Egypt's military: "Na Na Na Na, Na Na Na Na, Hey Hey, Goodbye"

AJE: al-Arian (MB) "The army said clearly that they are committed to the democratic system leading to civilian control."

AJE: journalist and cameraman ditched by their taxi driver who went to dance in street. Cameraman drove taxi to Tahrir.

Any comment from Rick Santorum?