TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

There's not really a lot of open land, honestly, between parking lots, that hospital, the History and Science museums, the RiverCentre itself and faceless skyscrapers behind the Xcel.

In this crappy economy, you can't tell me existing owners wouldn't be willing to be bought out if the price was right.

Parking lots = wasted space. Build a multilevel establishment where a lot is and have people park in the multilevel garages that are all over the *'ing place.

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

FYP.

Why do I get the feeling that a lot of pics will be taken by that sign in April 2011?

Edit: Bakunin: any city codes that we are not aware of? Not a lot of 3+ story bars/buildings near there (besides offices: commercial zoning).

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Edit: Bakunin: any city codes that we are not aware of? Not a lot of 3+ story bars/buildings near there (besides offices: commercial zoning).

Don't know - I don't think you see a lot of three story bars anywhere. Replacing lots with two story bars/restaurants would be a big step in the right direction, though. Even a relatively small lot replaced by a two story establishment would be able to serve at least 100-200 people at a time.

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Don't know - I don't think you see a lot of three story bars anywhere. Replacing lots with two story bars/restaurants would be a big step in the right direction, though. Even a relatively small lot replaced by a two story establishment would be able to serve at least 100-200 people at a time.

I was thinking more along the lines of multi-level parking, which would open up some of the many single level lot areas, which would (should) equal more building opportunities.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

I was thinking more along the lines of multi-level parking, which would open up some of the many single level lot areas, which would (should) equal more building opportunities.

Well a coordinated effort would be required by the St. Paul city council to approve such things. I don't know how *'ing hard it is to just bulldoze/demolish an abandoned building or two and put up a parking garage to accommodate 300+ cars to offset the development of a handful of surface lots in the area. I do know that since the huge economic downturn hit, there's a lot of vacant office space in the downtown area. Eventually some of those property owners are going to go broke or have to sell low - that's when the city should step in and lure in the developers.

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Well a coordinated effort would be required by the St. Paul city council to approve such things. I don't know how *'ing hard it is to just bulldoze/demolish an abandoned building or two and put up a parking garage to accommodate 300+ cars to offset the development of a handful of surface lots in the area. I do know that since the huge economic downturn hit, there's a lot of vacant office space in the downtown area. Eventually some of those property owners are going to go broke or have to sell low - that's when the city should step in and lure in the developers.

Like I said: drunk micks.

Maybe they'll figure it out this summer, and go balls out. But both you and I know that won't happen.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Like every city government in existence these days, they are probably more focused on telling people what they can't do / can't build than allowing them to do the things that are necessary to improve business / increase tax revenue. It's comical that these tools are so fixated on "green space" and such and then wonder why they have so many budget problems. Um, dumb****s, maybe if you let people open businesses with relative ease rather than throwing hurdles in front of them at every opportunity, maybe, just MAYBE, you'd have a healthier budget.

Parks look nice, but they don't *'ing generate any revenue. Wait, I have a solution. Build multilevel parking garages with solar panels on the roofs and algae covering the side walls. As long as it's "green", city governments will approve practically anything.

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Like every city government in existence these days, they are probably more focused on telling people what they can't do / can't build than allowing them to do the things that are necessary to improve business / increase tax revenue. It's comical that these tools are so fixated on "green space" and such and then wonder why they have so many budget problems. Um, dumb****s, maybe if you let people open businesses with relative ease rather than throwing hurdles in front of them at every opportunity, maybe, just MAYBE, you'd have a healthier budget.

Parks look nice, but they don't *'ing generate any revenue. Wait, I have a solution. Build multilevel parking garages with solar panels on the roofs and algae covering the side walls. As long as it's "green", city governments will approve practically anything.

Perfect opportunity for our bar! Make it "green" and then when approved, after about a year or so, lose the "green" crap and ride the profits all the way until retirement!

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Perfect opportunity for our bar! Make it "green" and then when approved, after about a year or so, lose the "green" crap and ride the profits all the way until retirement!

There's probably a cost effective way to make it green enough without going into full fledged envirotard mode (i.e. proper insulation / heat efficient windows and roofing materials, etc).

Building / opening / owning a bar would be expensive. I'm guessing that between the cost of the building itself and the land, it would be at least a million for a two-story establishment. This doesn't include other costs like utilities / licensing / permits / staffing / food / booze.

I'm doing pretty well, but I'm a long way from having that kind of money. This sort of thing would require a pretty significant group of investors - and that even assumes we can get through the St. Paul government.

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

There's probably a cost effective way to make it green enough without going into full fledged envirotard mode (i.e. proper insulation / heat efficient windows and roofing materials, etc).

Building / opening / owning a bar would be expensive. I'm guessing that between the cost of the building itself and the land, it would be at least a million for a two-story establishment. This doesn't include other costs like utilities / licensing / permits / staffing / food / booze.

I'm doing pretty well, but I'm a long way from having that kind of money. This sort of thing would require a pretty significant group of investors - and that even assumes we can get through the St. Paul government.

And considering that the bar/restaurant business has one of the highest failure rates in any industry. There's a reason bars change so much in DT Minneapolis. I think I read that the avg turnaround is about 2-3 years for most bars/clubs that have opened in the past decade or so.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

And considering that the bar/restaurant business has one of the highest failure rates in any industry. There's a reason bars change so much in DT Minneapolis. I think I read that the avg turnaround is about 2-3 years for most bars/clubs that have opened in the past decade or so.

Minneapolis is problematic because the Timberwolves are terrible and don't draw very well. With the Twins going outdoors, they will certainly draw more fans than they did to the Dome, and of course there's the eight weekends a year that the Vikings bring 60,000+ into downtown (plus preseason games). Overall, I'd think a bar would have a better shot in Minneapolis due to all the crap that goes on year-round. In St. Paul, you're pretty much banking on hockey + whatever else the X draws. I don't know how reliable concert crowds are for flooding bars, but obviously hockey / sports fans do it (and with three major sports in Minneapolis, that's a significant advantage to locating there).

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Minneapolis is problematic because the Timberwolves are terrible and don't draw very well. With the Twins going outdoors, they will certainly draw more fans than they did to the Dome, and of course there's the eight weekends a year that the Vikings bring 60,000+ into downtown (plus preseason games). Overall, I'd think a bar would have a better shot in Minneapolis due to all the crap that goes on year-round. In St. Paul, you're pretty much banking on hockey + whatever else the X draws. I don't know how reliable concert crowds are for flooding bars, but obviously hockey / sports fans do it (and with three major sports in Minneapolis, that's a significant advantage to locating there).

IMO, MPLS's prob is so MANY bars and such. All want to create their own niche, and there's not enough people to do that (create regulars, in other words). Many hop on a trend, and when that trend usually fails, they're done. "True" bars like Rosen's, Brother's, etc, don't fail. It's the Barfly's, Epic's, etc (aka Club of the Month) that fail.

Also, concert crowds do add to St Paul, but that's a one-off, since many people who don't live close enough to St Paul may go to a concert, but don't have the repeat business capability to sustain a bar.

Prime example: I'll go (and have gone) to the X for a concert, etc, but frankly, I can get similar/better bars in DT MPLS, so why travel the extra 10 minutes to get to St Paul for that? And also for less choices? And even if they had more of a selection, it's still farther away. It'd have to be a dam special place for me to travel farther/etc, only because of similar choices here.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Clubs are impersonal and incapable of forming much of a niche. How many longterm ones are there that still exist? First Ave is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

Yet you're able to name several bars that are still around - I'd throw the Local in as another that's been there for years... so it can be done. I think the trick is to just keep it simple and do a limited number of things extremely well to make you stand out relative to all the flash in the pan type places that come and go.

Given the devotion to bacon on here, I imagine if a group of us owned a place, we could come up with some sort of signature item that would wow people and draw repeat business / get some good publicity.

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Clubs are impersonal and incapable of forming much of a niche. How many longterm ones are there that still exist? First Ave is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

Yet you're able to name several bars that are still around - I'd throw the Local in as another that's been there for years... so it can be done. I think the trick is to just keep it simple and do a limited number of things extremely well to make you stand out relative to all the flash in the pan type places that come and go.

Given the devotion to bacon on here, I imagine if a group of us owned a place, we could come up with some sort of signature item that would wow people and draw repeat business / get some good publicity.

The Triple Rock does have Bacon Night.

And even First Ave went broke. Talk about bad management. But clubs have themes, is what I'm saying. That's their "niche." The thing they haven't figured out is: good music, good drinks = win. They try and get too specific "we're going with a South Beach theme" or a "modern Warhol thing" or whatever. The place that stay? See my equation for success.

Yes, good music is open for interpretation, but if you rely on one simple genre of music, that lessens the chance of a bigger audience. The bars that have stuck around usually have music that is current, it varies all over the board from rap to rock to whatever, and they make good drinks (not watered down, at least not too much). Simple, basic. That's a win.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Triple Rock is not a place I'd think of when I think of "signature food items".

The issue I have with bars is they often play music WAY TOO *'ING LOUD. You can't even have a conversation without yelling into people's ears. If you're going to have a dancefloor, fine - but you don't need to play the music at ear drum-busting levels for it to work. I wonder if it's possible to have a semi-walled-in dance floor so the loud(er) music required for that doesn't spill over as much into the rest of the bar.

Cripes, maybe even have a bar with a sit-down side (lower volume or no music at all) and a dancefloor side...

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Triple Rock is not a place I'd think of when I think of "signature food items".

The issue I have with bars is they often play music WAY TOO *'ING LOUD. You can't even have a conversation without yelling into people's ears. If you're going to have a dancefloor, fine - but you don't need to play the music at ear drum-busting levels for it to work. I wonder if it's possible to have a semi-walled-in dance floor so the loud(er) music required for that doesn't spill over as much into the rest of the bar.

Cripes, maybe even have a bar with a sit-down side (lower volume or no music at all) and a dancefloor side...

Some have that. Not many, but some. Off the top of my head, Lion's Pub/Tap (whichever one is by Murray's in DT MPLS) has that. First Ave has a good setup going with the upstairs bit, and I can't remember the bar that has the S&M night (their "signature," although I won't go there on that night) has a similar-to-1st-Ave setup with a balcony, and also Chammp's has their alley, which is great in summer.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Triple Rock is not a place I'd think of when I think of "signature food items".

The issue I have with bars is they often play music WAY TOO *'ING LOUD. You can't even have a conversation without yelling into people's ears. If you're going to have a dancefloor, fine - but you don't need to play the music at ear drum-busting levels for it to work. I wonder if it's possible to have a semi-walled-in dance floor so the loud(er) music required for that doesn't spill over as much into the rest of the bar.

Cripes, maybe even have a bar with a sit-down side (lower volume or no music at all) and a dancefloor side...

There are two bars like that in GF. The upstairs (Sensations) has a single bar, tables, and a dance floor. It's pretty much only open when a live act is on stage. Downstairs (The Down UNDer) is more of a sit down bar, but there's a little room off to the side where there's a dancefloor and a DJ...

 

[The Rube]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Minneapolis needs to move The Red Carpet (St Cloud) to downtown. Yeah, I said it.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Some have that. Not many, but some.

If they are in the long-standing group of successful bars, this would be another trait to go along with "simple but good food and strong drinks" as keys to success. If the sidewalk is big enough, outdoor seating is also an easy expansion idea for the warm weather months.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: TRP: These Ides Have Seen A Lot Of Loves...

Minneapolis needs to move The Red Carpet (St Cloud) to downtown. Yeah, I said it.

The carpet has a good thing because they have 10 bars in one, so there is something there for everyone. A bar that does the same thing, only 20 times better is Chillkoot Charlie's in Anchorage, probably the coolest bar I've ever been too.