The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

[duper]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I think we can differentiate between a monument honoring someone and historical places.

A statue honoring Robert E. Lee is different than his house.
A statue honoring Hitler won't be found in Germany, but you can still visit historical Nazi sites.

For one thing, quite a few of those statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, pretty transparently in order to intimidate black people.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

For one thing, quite a few of those statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, pretty transparently in order to scare black people.

This is important. They were "you may be free but you're still not our equals" messaging.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

For one thing, quite a few of those statues were put up during the Jim Crow era, pretty transparently in order to intimidate black people.

Quite a few? Wasn’t it north of 75%?

 

[The Rube]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I'm saying if the people in the area want to rename the lake to Bde Maka Ska that's fine, go for it. If you're stanning for keeping it named after a guy who fought for slavery like Rube is or as he's done with confederate statues then that's pretty pathetic. (and yes Calhoun didn't technically fight in the war so let's not get pendantic about the word "fight" here)

As for native american treatment Calhoun checks that box too.

Whoa, I don't recall standing FOR CSA statues. I might have said (I don't recall) that a bigger deal was made of them than what was needed, but that's about it. So you can stop right there, please.

I do support leaving some monuments/paintings/etc up with updated plaques on what the person's character was, to learn from history (IIRC there was a painting in the St Paul capitol that was going to do that, or thought about doing that?

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Whoa, I don't recall standing FOR CSA statues. I might have said (I don't recall) that a bigger deal was made of them than what was needed, but that's about it. So you can stop right there, please.

I do support leaving some monuments/paintings/etc up with updated plaques on what the person's character was, to learn from history (IIRC there was a painting in the St Paul capitol that was going to do that, or thought about doing that?

Plaque updates will probably get blocked by the knucks as being "hyperbole" or "political propaganda". Can't be giving the kiddos the full story.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Plaque updates will probably get blocked by the knucks as being "hyperbole" or "political propaganda". Can't be giving the kiddos the full story.

Yeah, it's better just to erase it. That is what drives me nuts about these things.

 

[duper]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Yeah, it's better just to erase it. That is what drives me nuts about these things.

Taking down statues does not erase the history. They do, in some cases, contribute to generational trauma.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Taking down statues does not erase the history. They do, in some cases, contribute to generational trauma.

They erase it, because they sure don't teach much of that stuff in school. Hence the idea of putting up a differently worded plaque by the thing the person is named after.....

 

[duper]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

They erase it, because they sure don't teach much of that stuff in school. Hence the idea of putting up a differently worded plaque by the thing the person is named after.....

mmm... just can't agree there.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

mmm... just can't agree there.

That's fine. It's a tough issue to even discuss rationally, much less agree to disagree on, etc.

 

[duper]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

That's fine. It's a tough issue to even discuss rationally, much less agree to disagree on, etc.

agreed

It also helps that while I have a distinct opinion, if I had to give a percentage of how much I care about this issue, it would almost certainly be a 1-digit number.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

agreed

It also helps that while I have a distinct opinion, if I had to give a percentage of how much I care about this issue, it would almost certainly be a 1-digit number.

I look at it long term: how long before someone wants to change a name because they were anti-LGBT, or find something out in that person's past that doesn't sit well by today's standards (see: Kate Smith). How slippery is that slope?

 

[duper]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I look at it long term: how long before someone wants to change a name because they were anti-LGBT, or find something out in that person's past that doesn't sit well by today's standards (see: Kate Smith). How slippery is that slope?

My inclination is to think that it's not very slippery. I'm also ok with societal values changing, and the baggage that accompanies that change.

Some people will survive the changes with acknowledgement of craziness and recognition that their accomplishments outweigh that craziness. Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. Ben Franklin. The composer Wagner does ok. Most humans are relegated to the dustbin of history. That's appropriate. I'm honestly ok with someone being thus relegated because they pushed some crazy nonsense. Anyone with a conscience, at any time in history, knew that treating people like animals because of [fill in the blank] was not kind.

 

[The Rube]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

My inclination is to think that it's not very slippery. I'm also ok with societal values changing, and the baggage that accompanies that change.

Some people will survive the changes with acknowledgement of craziness and recognition that their accomplishments outweigh that craziness. Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. Ben Franklin. The composer Wagner does ok. Most humans are relegated to the dustbin of history. That's appropriate. I'm honestly ok with someone being thus relegated because they pushed some crazy nonsense. Anyone with a conscience, at any time in history, knew that treating people like animals because of [fill in the blank] was not kind.

And that's why I originally brought up Teddy Roosevelt. How many things does he have his name on?

If a name is to be taken down for (reasons)...how does one judge accomplishments > craziness? That changes with the times, all the time... different standards are set. It's always fluctuating.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

agreed

It also helps that while I have a distinct opinion, if I had to give a percentage of how much I care about this issue, it would almost certainly be a 1-digit number.

This. It's something to be dealt with over time, and by vote of the communities that have such monuments. In the meantime, let's enforce a proper American history curriculum to do our best to educate the youth.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Whoa, I don't recall standing FOR CSA statues. I might have said (I don't recall) that a bigger deal was made of them than what was needed, but that's about it. So you can stop right there, please.

I do support leaving some monuments/paintings/etc up with updated plaques on what the person's character was, to learn from history (IIRC there was a painting in the St Paul capitol that was going to do that, or thought about doing that?

The point is these statues were not history. It wasn't as if these were old statues of heroes of a side which subsequently lost. These were built 50-75 years after the fact by butt-hurt southern racists to convinces themselves The Cause hadn't been lost. They were the chronological equivalent of a Neo-Nazi group today building a statue to Hitler.

They were southern white propaganda supporting this recurring racist strain in their culture, right from the start. Preserving them isn't "remembering history," it's preserving a new round in their age-old dumbas-s apartheid state.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

again... winners write history

and nature abhors a vacuum

..only two rules that matter in the end.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

again... winners write history

and nature abhors a vacuum

..only two rules that matter in the end.

follow the money

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

again... winners write history

and nature abhors a vacuum

..only two rules that matter in the end.

Winners usually write history. In the case of a great many of those Civil War statues, the losers were trying to use them as a tool to help claw back some of their losses.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Winners usually write history. In the case of a great many of those Civil War statues, the losers were trying to use them as a tool to help claw back some of their losses.

I think he's saying the fact that the statues are coming down has to do with the winners imposing their will on the losers. Which is wrong but in line with his aphorism so he's stuck with it. It also punts the whole issue of the morality of the slavers to the more congenial terrain of real politik.

tldr: an evasion