The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

[St. Clown]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Well duh...Edina, Minnetonka and Wayzata are awful

The biggest farce of them all is...even if the name stayed at Bde Maka Ska everyone still called it Calhoun. The name change is completely ceremonial. Just like everybody still calls it Mariucci Arena not the corporate name.

Nobody's calling it Mother Mining's Mariucci Arena?

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

It doesn't make the comments or thoughts of Ford or Disney or Lindbergh or Calhoun right. It has to be taken in the context of their times.

Yeah because nobody was opposed to slavery back then

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

My practice with people, and in particular, historical figures, is this. You can't judge them by today's standards. That even holds true for physical objects. We can't judge the quality of the computers that helped send men to the moon based upon today's standards.

It doesn't make the comments or thoughts of Ford or Disney or Lindbergh or Calhoun right. It has to be taken in the context of their times.

And honestly, part of the reason for my position on this is that's the way I want to be judged. I don't want to be judged based upon the standards of 2100.

And to me it comes down to who is making it an issue. If the people actually afflicted are the ones upset and protesting then the issue has merit. If it is mostly a bunch of White People showing how thoughtful and helpful they are then I cant much care. (this obviously is only for small things like this) If the students at Princeton want to get rid of halls with the name Wilson that is their right. If a bunch of people from Whole Foods start whining about it they can get bent.

And dx, maybe look beyond Wikipedia when looking into history. Lindbergh and his beliefs have been known for decades...

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Yeah because nobody was opposed to slavery back then

So your plan is to white wash out everyone who wasnt a strict abolitionist? How far back are you going to go? Is every public figure Pre-Emancipation who was pro slavery now not allowed to be named? Where do you plan to draw the line?

It isnt like Calhoun fought in the Civil War for the South (he was long dead) so he wasnt a traitor. So it is all on the slavery issue with him.

And does this white washing also include the treatment of the Natives? Shall we take all the names down of the people who made their bones killing, starving and enslaving them? Hell that would be more relevant to Minnesota.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

The whole Lake Calhoun name controversy should really demonstrate quite clearly two truths.

First, it's stupid to name publicly owned property like lakes, streets or buildings after real people. Real people have warts. All of them. Somewhere, some time, some how, someone is going to be offended by those warts. Name the lake Maple Lake or some such thing. Heaven knows Minnesota needs another Maple Lake.

Second, now that we're pregnant and we've ignored Truth #1 and gone down this path, forget about it. Again, people have warts. We knew that when we started naming things after them. Whatever good was in them that caused them to receive this unearned honor still exists. Plus, and most importantly, we have far greater needs to spend our time and money on than renaming every lake, street, city, state or building that has the name Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Davis, Monroe, Jackson, Calhoun, etc..., attached to it.

1. It's a matter of degree. And as times change different aspects of a person's history are stressed and that degree changes.

2. No. All this says is "in my opinion it's not important enough to change." Others disagree with you. In a democratic society these things are constantly renegotiated and sometimes we individually lose. That always seems like an affront since otherwise we would have decided differently in the first place.

Sometimes you lose. This time you lost. Either get over it and move on to the next thing or, if you are REALLY invested, start a counter-movement to change the name back. Maybe you'll win.

 

[duper]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

The idea that this issue (or any issue) is black and white and we either have to wipe out all signs of racism or leave all monuments no matter how insane the person being memorialized was is dumb as dirt. In this, as in all things, there are shades.

It's not a slippery slope.

Distinguishing between important figures in American History who were *******s and did seriously ugly **** while also creating the country we live in and lumps of manure who are known primarily for being lumps of manure does NOT make us hypocrites. If you think it does, you are objectively wrong. Everyone has the right to their wrong opinions, but don't get upset when people point out that your opinion is wrong.

 

[mookie1995]

Didn’t Lindbergh change to terminal one years ago?

Who the hell goes to Calhoun square? Or uptown??

Christie Brinkley

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

So your plan is to white wash out everyone who wasnt a strict abolitionist?

I'm saying if the people in the area want to rename the lake to Bde Maka Ska that's fine, go for it. If you're stanning for keeping it named after a guy who fought for slavery like Rube is or as he's done with confederate statues then that's pretty pathetic. (and yes Calhoun didn't technically fight in the war so let's not get pendantic about the word "fight" here)

As for native american treatment Calhoun checks that box too.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Sometimes you lose. This time you lost. Either get over it and move on to the next thing or, if you are REALLY invested, start a counter-movement to change the name back. Maybe you'll win.

As far as I can tell, the only way I "lost" was as a tax paying citizen of Minnesota. First, I didn't take a position either for or against any of the name changes (I really don't care what they name the buildings or lake), other than to argue that it seems like a huge waste of time and money to first "study" this and then have the fight.

Second, none of the names were changed, which again kind of proves my point. They went through all the time and money, and then didn't even change the names of the buildings, and, as it turned out, lacked the legal authority to change the name of the lake. Maybe they should have spent the money on a lawyer's opinion, then followed it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Some of this is a deep philosophical question of whether there are enduring standards of right and wrong. Presuming that 99% of people today agree that slavery is wrong that number was significantly less in 1819 or 1719. Was slavery always wrong? Are right and wrong forever and all that changes is the numbers of people who have the wrong opinion about it? If moral standards are eternal and absolute -- the typical conservative position by the way -- then Calhoun was always exactly as wrong as he is today and therefore he should not be honored.

But most of this is the trivial fact that we should be allowed to name things whatever we want. That something was called x yesterday, or for a hundred years, doesn't mean we can't change it to y with a Thanos snap, for whatever reason we want. We are the living -- we are not the slaves of the dead.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Well duh...Edina, Minnetonka and Wayzata are awful

The biggest farce of them all is...even if the name stayed at Bde Maka Ska everyone still called it Calhoun. The name change is completely ceremonial. Just like everybody still calls it Mariucci Arena not the corporate name.

I call it 3M Arena because it makes people's heads explode.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

And dx, maybe look beyond Wikipedia when looking into history. Lindbergh and his beliefs have been known for decades...

I get that and don't necessarily disagree. But wikipedia is a great source to get five minutes to get 80% of the necessary information on a subject to have a casual conversation. Instead of spending hours or tens of hours reading to get that last 20%. I don't get why people rag on wikipedia. I wouldn't cite it in a research paper, but for everyday things it's a great resource.

That said, can you recommend anything in particular?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

As far as I can tell, the only way I "lost" was as a tax paying citizen of Minnesota. First, I didn't take a position either for or against any of the name changes (I really don't care what they name the buildings or lake), other than to argue that it seems like a huge waste of time and money to first "study" this and then have the fight.

Second, none of the names were changed, which again kind of proves my point. They went through all the time and money, and then didn't even change the names of the buildings, and, as it turned out, lacked the legal authority to change the name of the lake. Maybe they should have spent the money on a lawyer's opinion, then followed it.

I meant "lost" in the sense that something somebody did irked you. That happens every day to me, and when the somebody is a governing authority that supposedly speaks in my name I definitely feel like I've been taken. Pretty much anything Dump does moment to moment is a direct affront to me as an American citizen. My recourse is obvious and I intend to exercise it in 2020.

As far as spending money on sh-t you don't agree with: welcome to democracy.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Some of this is a deep philosophical question of whether there are enduring standards of right and wrong. Presuming that 99% of people today agree that slavery is wrong that number was significantly less in 1819 or 1719. Was slavery always wrong? Are right and wrong forever and all that changes is the numbers of people who have the wrong opinion about it? If moral standards are eternal and absolute -- the typical conservative position by the way -- then Calhoun was always exactly as wrong as he is today and therefore he should not be honored.

But most of this is the trivial fact that we should be allowed to name things whatever we want. That something was called x yesterday, or for a hundred years, doesn't mean we can't change it to y with a Thanos snap, for whatever reason we want. We are the living -- we are not the slaves of the dead.

Of course we can change it, and as I've previously posted, the name of these objects is entirely irrelevant.

But, there are real world financial consequences for making those changes. There are people and businesses that identify by that street name or that lake name. Maybe they have to change signs and business cards and websites, etc... Maybe they have to chisel the word "Coffman" out of 100 year old granite. I have no idea of the real impact.

If the student union at the U of M was named Adolph Hitler Memorial Union people would be like, w t f?

I didn't attend the U of M but I've been in the memorial union many times. I knew it was called Coffman, but I had no idea who that was, whether it was a man or woman, or what their past may have been like. All around me I would see black kids and brown kids and yellow kids and red kids and white kids sitting and socializing or eating some food or studying and not a single one of them gave a second thought as to the name of the building.

If that's the case, then is it really that bad?

 

[trixR4kids]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

as far as i can tell, the only way i "lost" was as a tax paying citizen of minnesota. First, i didn't take a position either for or against any of the name changes (i really don't care what they name the buildings or lake), other than to argue that it seems like a huge waste of time and money to first "study" this and then have the fight.

i have no idea of the real impact.

lmao

 

[Kepler]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

If that's the case, then is it really that bad?

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

I call it 3M Arena because it makes people's heads explode.

Well that is just funny. Only thing better is asking what time is the game on tv

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The States: North Dakota is Still the Worst

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Cut the tree down. Trees get cut down all the time and there is no real cost (other than a few hours of worker time), just sentimental cost.

 

[mookie1995]

Let's say there is a beautiful old tree on a college campus, famous for decades for sportsball victory celebrations, iconic graduation photos, and fumbling midnight trysts.

One day a historian realizes it was used for lynchings long before the college was founded. The black student association protests. The liberals on campus demand action. Finally the student council recommends the tree be cut down because its presence is deeply offensive to many students and visitors.

(Mostly white, rich) alumni protest and threaten to withhold money. Environmentalists are split -- everybody agrees it's not the poor tree's fault. Everybody agrees that the removal of the tree will cost the campus a tremendous amount of history; all of it, prior to the revelation, positive -- all of it shared by all students of whatever color.

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

Shoot the historian and call it a day....

..some things are better left unsaid
...don’t ask, don’t tell

 

[mookie1995]

Shoot the historian and call it a day....

..some things are better left unsaid
...don’t ask, don’t tell

....don’t make your problems my problems