The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgiving

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I was actually surprised the graduation rates were up to 60%. When I graduated high school in 1995, roughly 60% of graduating students were attending college. When I graduated college in 1999, it was reported that only around 40% of college students my age and older graduate from school, so less than 24% of the work force population held a four-year degree at the time, assuming a rising university entrance rate.

 

[Rover]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

While I'm not sure the exact legal issue at stake here, in a broader sense I can see a university taking race into consideration not due to some "white guilt" issue but rather that their students be exposed to people from different backgrounds, of which race can be one of them. The town I grew up in was lilly white. I think there were 5 black kids in the entire high school population of about 1400. Going to school at BU was an eye opener in that I was exposed to people from lots of different places around the world. I personally benefited from meeting different people, whether they were from India, Africa, Pakistan or Roxbury (a neighborhood of Boston).

So, I don't see the point of telling universities they can't do that. Essentially what you'll be doing is screwing American students, because a university could still achieve their goals in terms of race by accepting people from different countries under the goal of having a diverse student body, which wouldn't be against the law but would still lead to the same end result - having a general amount of the student population being non-white in order to make the campus look more like society.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

in a broader sense I can see a university [wanting a diverse student body so] that their students [are] be exposed to people from different backgrounds... I personally benefited from meeting [a variety of] people [from different backgrounds].

So, I don't see the point of telling universities they can't do that. Essentially what you'll be doing is screwing American students, because a university could still achieve their goals in terms of ...having a general amount of the student population ... look more like society.

I can certainly understand that point of view from the university's perspective, or from the majority-student perspective.

At the same time, I was a "diversity admission" and the experience was not quite like the one you describe. I grew up literally "on the other side of the tracks" in the blue collar section of town in a blue collar family, and was the first in our extended family ever to go to a four-year college. Going to an "elite" school in the northeast was not fun. For me, buying one suit was a major investment, while many of my classmates had their own tuxedos in their closet. One classmate was the seventh generation of his family to attend the same school. There were a number of us diversity admissions and we were all social misfits in one way or another. Fortunately for me, I was smart and at least I could hold my own and then some in my classes, while some of my other diversity-admission friends struggled in their classes and were miserable all around.

In one sense, the "diversity admissions" concept is using one group of people to promote other people's social goals. Whether you are the user or the one being used makes a difference in how you view the situation.

 

[Rover]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Very similar here. Blue collar family, first to graduate from college. While nobody I knew had a closet full of tuxedos (mookie? Tater?) I obviously went to school with wealthy kids and I'm sure a few legacies.

In the end though, who cares? I wasn't there to become class President or head of a fraternity. I was there to get a degree and a good job, both of which I accomplished. Yes I'd rather be born rich, and yes it would have been nice to have a trust fund in order to fully enjoy my college experience, but that's not the hand life dealt me. So, did I go on a ski vacation at the private chalet of some Richie Rich from Introduction to Investments freshman year? No. Do I care? No. Hell, I don't ski anyway.

Point is, college is what you make of it. Even if you are a misfit, your primary goal is education which leads to earning a living. The secondary stuff is important, but it doesn't detract from what you need to accomplish first and foremost.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Very similar here. Blue collar family, first to graduate from college. While nobody I knew had a closet full of tuxedos (mookie? Tater?) I obviously went to school with wealthy kids and I'm sure a few legacies.

In the end though, who cares? I wasn't there to become class President or head of a fraternity. I was there to get a degree and a good job, both of which I accomplished. Yes I'd rather be born rich, and yes it would have been nice to have a trust fund in order to fully enjoy my college experience, but that's not the hand life dealt me. So, did I go on a ski vacation at the private chalet of some Richie Rich from Introduction to Investments freshman year? No. Do I care? No. Hell, I don't ski anyway.

Point is, college is what you make of it. Even if you are a misfit, your primary goal is education which leads to earning a living. The secondary stuff is important, but it doesn't detract from what you need to accomplish first and foremost.

Well said Rover. Hope you have a great Christmas season!

 

[busterman62]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Very similar here. Blue collar family, first to graduate from college. While nobody I knew had a closet full of tuxedos (mookie? Tater?) I obviously went to school with wealthy kids and I'm sure a few legacies.

In the end though, who cares? I wasn't there to become class President or head of a fraternity. I was there to get a degree and a good job, both of which I accomplished. Yes I'd rather be born rich, and yes it would have been nice to have a trust fund in order to fully enjoy my college experience, but that's not the hand life dealt me. So, did I go on a ski vacation at the private chalet of some Richie Rich from Introduction to Investments freshman year? No. Do I care? No. Hell, I don't ski anyway.

Point is, college is what you make of it. Even if you are a misfit, your primary goal is education which leads to earning a living. The secondary stuff is important, but it doesn't detract from what you need to accomplish first and foremost.

I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.

– Attributed to Mark Twain

.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Even if you are a misfit, your primary goal is education which leads to earning a living. The secondary stuff is important, but it doesn't detract from what you need to accomplish first and foremost.

I disagree strongly. The primary goal of college is to expose, test, and remake yourself to as broad and vibrant a clashing of ideas and intelligent personalities as you can, in order to help create a mind that will continue to expand and grow throughout adulthood. Learning a trade is either what high school or the military is about (if you aren't going on to college), what professional post-grad programs are about (if you are specifically going into law, medicine or business), or what the continuous rough and tumble process of learning by doing is.

There are two great spurs to intellectual flourishing: minds you hold in your hand and minds you interact with. College remains the best concentrated dose of the latter.

Occupational training is necessary and laudable, but it is far, far from the primary point of a college education.

busterman, the Twain quote reminds me of a great line from The Big Sleep:

I went to college but I can still speak English when my business demands it.

 

[The Sicatoka]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

The primary goal of college is to expose, test, and remake yourself to as broad and vibrant a clashing of ideas and intelligent personalities as you can, in order to help create a mind that will continue to expand and grow throughout adulthood.

That sounds awesome, Kep. And it will keep Starbucks in art history, anthropology, film, and philosophy major baristas for the foreseeable future.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

That sounds awesome, Kep. And it will keep Starbucks in art history, anthropology, film, and philosophy major baristas for the foreseeable future.

All the bros who went to college to pledge their frats, drink, date rape and learn how to be bond traders got the financial crash wrong.

The [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_Whitney"]chick who went for history[/URL] got it right.

Not everything necessary is important.

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

All the bros who went to college to pledge their frats, drink, date rape and learn how to be bond traders got the financial crash wrong.

The [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meredith_Whitney"]chick who went for history[/URL] got it right.

Not everything necessary is important.

So she went for the high minded education, ran a hedge fund into the ground and married a WWE wrestler, so she got it right???

 

[Rover]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Well said Rover. Hope you have a great Christmas season!

Thanks Bob! All the best to you and your family for a Merry Christmas.

 

[Rover]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

That sounds awesome, Kep. And it will keep Starbucks in art history, anthropology, film, and philosophy major baristas for the foreseeable future.

Gotta agree with you here. Not making fun of Kep's idea, but a vibrant clashing of ideas doesn't put food on the table or provide a good living for your family.

 

[unofan]

Gotta agree with you here. Not making fun of Kep's idea, but a vibrant clashing of ideas doesn't put food on the table or provide a good living for your family.

That may be true, but there's a decent chunk of evidence that the degree itself is more important for future wages than what the degree is in. Philosophy majors in particular get a bad rap on that one.

My wife triple majored in uselessness, as she will admit (history, religious studies, and English). She's still made more than me our entire working lives (though I will finally be closing that gap next month with my new job). That's just one anecdote, but the data shows it's grounded in truth.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

So she went for the high minded education, ran a hedge fund into the ground and married a WWE wrestler, so she got it right???

You have to admit, it's a helluva life.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Gotta agree with you here. Not making fun of Kep's idea, but a vibrant clashing of ideas doesn't put food on the table or provide a good living for your family.

First of all, of course it does, because it helps make you the person who can do that in any field you care about.

A degree is to an education what a medal is to weightlifting. It's a sign that you built muscles, but it in itself builds no muscles. And it's the muscles that then help you lift the heavy things in the real world outside the gym.

Also: a flute with no holes is not a flute.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

You have to admit, it's a helluva life.

You're out of luck, I hear that the Rock is already married.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

That may be true, but there's a decent chunk of evidence that the degree itself is more important for future wages than what the degree is in. Philosophy majors in particular get a bad rap on that one.

A college degree in nearly any subject can be useful afterward, provided that the degree-holder is creative and innovative in how they apply it. Philosophy majors for example are in demand for an international business in particular (as are anthropology majors) because the ability to view the same subject from more than one perspective is particularly important there. Anyone with a degree that requires them to learn a foreign language can go into import/export or become a translator, etc. etc.

The whole conversation above presupposes one actually has the degree in the first place. At the outset, we started out by discussing how only three in five people admitted to college actually get the degree in the first place. What is the fate of those other two in five? Presumably they still have college loan debt to repay yet don't have the degree to show for it.

Did these two in five even "belong" in college in the first place? Or did they buy into the hype without a judicious regard for the possible downside? or, maybe, they actually did belong in some college, and merely were placed into a program beyond their competence? for example, some careers require post-calculus math, does someone who never studied calculus in high school immediately start at a disadvantage in some college programs, while they would be with their peers in a different college program in which everyone started out at the pre-calculus level?

I started in physics yet left after a year because it required so much math, which I enjoyed and was good at, but did not want to spend my entire college years studying only math and physics. I did fine with my degree after college because I learned how to do research, find and reference applicable sources, and craft and hone an extended logical argument derived from those sources. That skill is valuable in many fields.

Yet it also is a technical skill. It requires the same dedication to craft as plumbing or electricity or computer hardware repair or software coding.

Kepler's utopian vision of college is fine for rich dilettantes who can rely on family connections to get started on their first post-college job, but how many people can afford that luxury?

 

[Rover]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

First of all, of course it does, because it helps make you the person who can do that in any field you care about.

A degree is to an education what a medal is to weightlifting. It's a sign that you built muscles, but it in itself builds no muscles. And it's the muscles that then help you lift the heavy things in the real world outside the gym.

Also: a flute with no holes is not a flute.

Kep I'm sorry but you sound like a trust fund baby which I don't believe you are. I would have liked to have achieved enlightenment while I was commuting to school for the first couple of years while washing dishes on nights and weekends, but somehow I couldn't find the time. The accomplishment of busting your butt and getting that degree and job (which go hand and hand - getting a degree and then going back home and living off of mom and dad for another 20 years isn't success in my book) is what expands your mind as that tends to take effort for most of us. Its not the 60's anymore where people go to school to smoke dope, avoid the draft, and "find themselves" for 12 years. I loved Animal House as well, but I didn't have the option of going the Bluto Blutarski route (and for the record he did become a US Senator ).

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

You're out of luck, I hear that the Rock is already married.

Becky Lynch isn't.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Unless you wish to be an engineer, doctor or another extremely specialized field your choice of study is nearly pointless (nearly). Any college can stamp out finance degrees ad nauseam, but only a dope won't turn just about any degree into something. It's the same argument I have with friends in the neighborhood that insist upon sending their kids to a private school. I'll put my kids up against any other when it comes to overall brightness, ability to adapt, and depth of knowledge. Although our district wasn't as highly rated as many others in our area (MN is blessed with wonderful education on the whole), we ensured it didn't get in the way and no matter who taught them they were going to gain. We even home schooled them from November last year until the end of the past school year before enrolling them for the current year. Currently they're competing against Koreans and Europeans here and both our on the honor roll.