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The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgiving

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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I get your meaning...but its probably reason #1 or #2 (behind an increased potential of war).

Putting sane people on the Court is in the top 5, and putting sane people on the Court to protect workers is in the top 50, but putting sane people on the Court to protect workers by upholding union dues is exactly 486.

The next president will very likely replace 2 or more of the 4 justices born in the 1930s (Ginsburg 33, Scalia 36, Kennedy 36, Breyer 38) with justices born in the 1960s. Also, after those 4 there's a big gap, so when those judges do retire (or are melted by water thrown by a little girl), the Court will be set for a decade or more.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Elections have consequences.

Reason #486 why the Democrats have to hold the White House. The bringers of whatever misery the plutes want party continues to gradually repeal the 20th century. We can't stop hacks like Scalia and Thomas right now, but we can reverse their decisions before they're even cold in the ground.

So in effect you are saying that it is totally okay for your employer to force you personally to contribute to a fund that then lobbies for increased defense spending at the expense of all other government priorities? assuming that you are consistent in your reasoning, of course. :rolleyes:
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

So in effect you are saying that it is totally okay for your employer to force you personally to contribute to a fund that then lobbies for increased defense spending at the expense of all other government priorities? assuming that you are consistent in your reasoning, of course. :rolleyes:

My employer does exactly that to everyone above a certain level. You will contribute to their PAC if you like your job.
 
So in effect you are saying that it is totally okay for your employer to force you personally to contribute to a fund that then lobbies for increased defense spending at the expense of all other government priorities? assuming that you are consistent in your reasoning, of course. :rolleyes:

I haven't read the transcript yet, but Scalia is apparently the most likely fifth vote for the unions in this one. He understands the free rider issue when a union is required to bargain for everyone but not everyone is required to pay. He'd have no problem upholding such an agreement among a union and a private business.

He's just also likely to say that bargaining with the government is inherently political and therefore invokes the first amendment. I think that's silly - issues like notices of leave and vacation accrual are not political even when dealing with the government - but whatever.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I'd suggest FF read his hero Scalia's utter demolition of his talking point re: private companies, but unless RedState or Townhall gives him the Sparks Notes version he'll never see it. :p

Back to Ignore, sonny. Your signal to noise has zeroed out again.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I haven't read the transcript yet, but Scalia is apparently the most likely fifth vote for the unions in this one. He understands the free rider issue when a union is required to bargain for everyone but not everyone is required to pay. He'd have no problem upholding such an agreement among a union and a private business.

He's just also likely to say that bargaining with the government is inherently political and therefore invokes the first amendment. I think that's silly - issues like notices of leave and vacation accrual are not political even when dealing with the government - but whatever.

school teachers without tenure are forced against their will to subsidize their own union entering contract negotiations where the union then says that the first people to be laid off are school teachers without tenure. How is this not an "unreasonable seizure" of property?

There is an incredibly important difference between a private-sector union negotiating with a private business, and a public-sector union negotiating with a municipal or state government. Everything a public-sector union does or says is inherently political, because it inevitably includes public policy implications.

I'm fine with private-sector unions, belonged to one, supported others, depending on the time and the situation. They were often an essential element to create a balance of power situation. Public-sector unions actually create a conflict of interest inside each member, since what might be best for some union members may very well not be best for the citizens of the town or state with whom the union is negotiating.

Basically, the situation as it stands, which every party agrees is an accurate depiction, is that an employer withholds a portion of every employee's paycheck and then sends that money to a third party, which then uses that money to advocate for certain public policy positions.

The only question up for debate seems to be whether this is an acceptable infringement of union members' first amendment rights, because of some other consideration outside of the scope of the first amendment. You've pretty much said the same thing yourself in the post above.
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

My employer does exactly that to everyone above a certain level. You will contribute to their PAC if you like your job.

yes, but you are not posting here how wonderful an idea it is and how shameful it is that the court might strike it down as a way to please their plutocrat masters.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I haven't read the transcript yet, but Scalia is apparently the most likely fifth vote for the unions in this one. He understands the free rider issue when a union is required to bargain for everyone but not everyone is required to pay. He'd have no problem upholding such an agreement among a union and a private business.

He's just also likely to say that bargaining with the government is inherently political and therefore invokes the first amendment. I think that's silly - issues like notices of leave and vacation accrual are not political even when dealing with the government - but whatever.

Here is the SCOTUSBlog review.

For nearly forty years, it has been settled that, although public employees who don’t join a union cannot be required to pay for the union’s political activities, they can be charged an “agency” or “fair share” fee to pay for other costs that the union incurs – for example, for collective bargaining. After over an hour of oral arguments today, public-employee unions are likely very nervous, as the Court’s more conservative Justices appeared ready to overrule the Court’s 1977 decision in Abood v. Detroit Board of Education and strike down the fees. Let’s talk about Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association in Plain English.

The most telling sign that lead plaintiff Rebecca Friedrichs and her fellow teachers are likely to prevail may have actually come from the Court’s four more liberal Justices, who spent relatively little time on the main legal issue before the Court – that is, whether requiring non-members to pay the fee violates the First Amendment. Instead, many of their questions centered on whether, even if Friedrichs has a stronger legal argument, the Court should still rule against her based on a legal doctrine known as “stare decisis” – which counsels that the Court should not overturn its prior rulings unless there is a particularly compelling reason to do so. This suggests that the more liberal Justices realized that the battle on the merits of the case was not one that they could win. And so they shifted gears, trying to salvage a victory by convincing at least one of their colleagues that it would, as a matter of principle, be a bad idea to overrule the decision in Abood.

Justice Elena Kagan led the charge, telling Michael Carvin – who argued on behalf of Friedrichs – that public-employee unions have entered “tens of thousands of contracts,” governing “millions of employees, maybe as high as 10 million employees,” that would be disrupted if the Court were to overturn Abood. Therefore, she asked Carvin, “what special justification are you offering here” to do so? When Carvin answered that “the right of the citizen not to be subjected to unconstitutional treatment outweighs any reliance or predictability interests of stare decisis,” Kagan shot back, clearly unconvinced: “Your answer is essentially you don’t need a special justification if” the first decision denied a constitutional right? Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg chimed in, asking whether employees who don’t join a union would ask for their fees back if Friedrichs wins and suggesting to Carvin that, if the Court overrules Abood, other cases that rely on it would also fall, with far-reaching effects.

In at least a brief flicker of hope for the unions, Justice Anthony Kennedy also seemed to express some concern, telling Carvin that, if they were to “assume that stare decisis is an important consideration for the Court,” what happens to the “many contracts, perhaps thousands of contracts?” Carvin stood his ground, telling Kennedy that the extent to which unions and governments may have relied on the Court’s decision in Abood is irrelevant.

unofan (or other lawyers), is there a formal definition of when the Court considers it proper to overturn a prior decision, or is it an informal agreement not to re-litigate unless there's something really screwy? For that matter, isn't it a strong clue as to whether the Court intends to overturn a precedent that they even accept a case onto the docket that appears to re-litigate established precedent? Or does overturning sometimes "slip in," with justices going beyond the case under consideration to explicitly renounce a prior opinion only tangentially related?

Take for example McCutcheon, and the (hopeful) possibility of overturning it someday. Let's say one day early in the Hillary Clinton administration Scalia is struck by lightning while attempting to steal an ice cream cone from a wounded orphan child. After his replacement the liberal wing of the Court now has a majority. Stare decisis as a guideline suggests the Court is not going to be hot foot to overturn the Mordor-friendly rulings of the old configuration, so what would the practical result be? No change -- settled law? Gradual erosion of the principle (in the way the Warren Court rulings have been unwound)? Something more direct?
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

In researching something I found this by chance. Weird.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Not a lawyer but a couple of thoughts:

1) Can't the court just make up the ruling as it sees fit - as in it grandfathers in existing agreements so that you don't have to retroactively repay dues (a logistical disaster IMHO)?

2) I don't think precedent matters anymore in court proceedings. This isn't an anti-conservative thing (or anti-liberal). Its just that those traditions no longer seem to hold. 5 Righties would overturn Roe v Wade in a minute, while 5 Lefties would send Citizens United packing.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I don't think precedent matters anymore in court proceedings. This isn't an anti-conservative thing (or anti-liberal). Its just that those traditions no longer seem to hold. 5 Righties would overturn Roe v Wade in a minute, while 5 Lefties would send Citizens United packing.

I don't think we're there yet. A few more Alitos (on either side) and we'd be in trouble, but for now at least there is some competence. Even Scalia, though his sham of "strict construction" has been exposed as just a cloak to hide raw political partisanship, still gives it a shot to ground his ever-more-stretching opinions in some sort of law and history. And we dumped Harriet Miers (a.k.a., Katherine Harris with a law book), so it is possible at least for purely political justices to be blocked due to the sheer ineptitude of their nominator.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Justice Elena Kagan led the charge, telling Michael Carvin – who argued on behalf of Friedrichs – that public-employee unions have entered “tens of thousands of contracts,” governing “millions of employees, maybe as high as 10 million employees,” that would be disrupted if the Court were to overturn Abood. Therefore, she asked Carvin, “what special justification are you offering here” to do so? When Carvin answered that “the right of the citizen not to be subjected to unconstitutional treatment outweighs any reliance or predictability interests of stare decisis,” Kagan shot back, clearly unconvinced: “Your answer is essentially you don’t need a special justification if” the first decision denied a constitutional right?
Somebody help me out here. Isn't a denial of ones constitutional right more than enough justification to reverse a previous decision that prompted said denial? Is this taken out of context or am I reading too much into this?
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Somebody help me out here. Isn't a denial of ones constitutional right more than enough justification to reverse a previous decision that prompted said denial? Is this taken out of context or am I reading too much into this?

Boy, I sure would have thought so.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Somebody help me out here. Isn't a denial of ones constitutional right more than enough justification to reverse a previous decision that prompted said denial? Is this taken out of context or am I reading too much into this?

The part outside of the quotation makes it sound worse than what was actually said.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/14-915_e2p3.pdf

This particular exchange starts on page 17. Breyer's follow-up illustrates what Kagan is getting at, I think.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Boy, I sure would have thought so.
If I were Carvin, my reply to Kagan's inquiry would have been: "That's an amazingly stupid question." This is just one of many reasons why I am unable to argue in front of SCOTUS
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Somebody help me out here. Isn't a denial of one's constitutional right more than enough justification to reverse a previous decision that prompted said denial?

That depends upon the case and the Justice, given their track record. They have a whole list of situations in which it is okay to deny one constitutional right in order to protect some other right. The lawyers can chime in about "strict scrutiny" (I think there are three different levels of scrutiny that can be invoked depending upon the situation). The Justices have flat-out acknowledged that certain affirmative action programs are a violation of "equal protection under the law" yet justify them under certain circumstances anyway as addressing a "compelling state interest."

There are also limits on free speech rights ("no yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater", "no saying, 'go shoot that person there right now' to someone holding a gun") because there are times in which one right, carried to an extreme, comes into conflict with a different right.

The area of the law that seems to give the Justices the most trouble are those related to technological change. There are certain cases in which there is no Constitutional guidance whatsoever, because the situations from which those cases arise didn't even exist at the time the Constitution was written (or the decision was based on one technology and then a brand-new technology was invented that seems to subvert the purpose of the original decision).
 
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Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

There are solutions to this "problem": 1. Any employee who opts out of a union also opts out of any negotiated agreements and are responsible for negotiating their own terms, including salary, benefits, retirement, work rules etc.

Or 2. Ban public sector unions like people want but require all public employees, including legislators and executive level, to contribute to fund an independent worker advocacy group available to all. And, in the interest of fairness, all changes made to pay and benefits for legislators must be approved by voters.
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

There are solutions to this "problem": 1. Any employee who opts out of a union also opts out of any negotiated agreements and are responsible for negotiating their own terms, including salary, benefits, retirement, work rules etc.

Or 2. Ban public sector unions like people want but require all public employees, including legislators and executive level, to contribute to fund an independent worker advocacy group available to all. And, in the interest of fairness, all changes made to pay and benefits for legislators must be approved by voters.
If your first solution were implemented, it would result in exactly what the unions don't want. The non-union people would get paid the exact same hourly rate as the union people doing the same job. That would happen for a variety of reasons. First, it erodes support for the union. Second, they may have to for "equal pay for equal work" reasons. It's also just easier. You already see non-union management people getting basically the same healthcare package as the unions.

I think the "protection" of public employee angle, at least from a job protection standpoint, is greatly overstated with public employer unions. Public employees in a lot of states receive a lot of job protection that isn't otherwise available to private sector employees, just as a matter of law.

Pay is a different issue.
 
If your first solution were implemented, it would result in exactly what the unions don't want. The non-union people would get paid the exact same hourly rate as the union people doing the same job. That would happen for a variety of reasons. First, it erodes support for the union. Second, they may have to for "equal pay for equal work" reasons. It's also just easier. You already see non-union management people getting basically the same healthcare package as the unions.

I think the "protection" of public employee angle, at least from a job protection standpoint, is greatly overstated with public employer unions. Public employees in a lot of states receive a lot of job protection that isn't otherwise available to private sector employees, just as a matter of law.

Pay is a different issue.
I'm going to have to ask for sources on this. Are they actual laws applying only to public sector employees or work rule portions of CBAs? Anyway, by losing all negotiated benefits I mean losing all benefits. Health insurance, retirement contributions, everything. Even if they provide it now, if you get in a situation like here in Alaska where departments have to cut 10, 15, or 20% of their budget guess where they're gonna start?
 
Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I'm going to have to ask for sources on this. Are they actual laws applying only to public sector employees or work rule portions of CBAs? Anyway, by losing all negotiated benefits I mean losing all benefits. Health insurance, retirement contributions, everything. Even if they provide it now, if you get in a situation like here in Alaska where departments have to cut 10, 15, or 20% of their budget guess where they're gonna start?
Some examples that I can think of include these. First, I believe there are some first amendment protections that are afforded public employees. In other words, if I speak out against Trump and my private employer fires me, probably no protection to me. However, a public employee may have certain first amendment protections.

Another example is what is frequently referred to as a Loudermill hearing. I believe the name comes from a case. Basically it says that public employees may have a certain property interests in their job that can't be taken away without some sort of fair hearing.

In Minnesota, if a public employee is going to be questioned about something that might also involve criminal prosecution, say a theft of some property or something, I believe there is a specific warning that must first be given to that employee, and there are certain restrictions on the use of the information they provide in response to the questions.

There may also be "civil service" hearings that may provide certain hiring and firing protections.

These are just a couple of examples I can think of right off hand.
 
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