The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgiving

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

The Supreme Troll is at it Again

That man disgusts me more and more every time he opens his mouth...

This doesn't exactly surprise me:

Justice Scalia expressed frustration with how little debate goes on when the justices meet in private to discuss and vote on cases.

“I thrash out the cases with my law clerks much more than with my colleagues,” he said.

The old joke, there's one in every crowd, and if you look around and don't see him...

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

The Supreme Troll is at it Again

That man disgusts me more and more every time he opens his mouth...

I guess I am mistaken to expect better rhetoric from a sitting SCOTUS Justice than a false equivalency argument.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I guess I am mistaken to expect better rhetoric from a sitting SCOTUS Justice than a false equivalency argument.

Obviously you think Pedophiles should be a protected minority

Sad thing is I know a few around here that posited the same thing...proving Scalia is no better than the average message board troll.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

The Supreme Troll is at it Again

That man disgusts me more and more every time he opens his mouth...

Strict Construction for the win.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Baby steps or one off?

LA Times Link: Supreme Court lets local ban on assault weapons stand

I think this is pretty limited. So you can't openly carry assault weapons in public. Seems reasonable to me.

I don't think this extends to an outright ban for home defense. Though maybe it does. I'll wait for unofan to weigh in.

Edit: NM, looks like it does extend that ban. Will be interesting to see how this affects other municipalities.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I see that Fisher vs University of Texas is back on The Supremes docket this year. Apparently the last time around, they sent the case back to the Fifth Circuit Court and told them they were supposed to apply "strict scrutiny" and the Fifth Circuit then said, basically, "naw, we don't want to" and so the Supremes are going to hear it again.

Without discussing the merits of affirmative action directly, it seems to me that the whole affirmative action focus is on the wrong metric. Why is the question even about admissions practices in the first place, when the whole point of affirmative action is to increase graduation rates?

From the statistics I've seen, if a for-profit college were to accept as many students as are admitted under affirmative action programs, and then graduate the same percentages, they'd be hauled into court by the Department of Justice and raked over the coals big-time. How can private colleges and state universities get away with the very same <strike>scam</strike> practice without criticism, and be defended by so many people as if they were doing a good thing?


For a long time, I've spoken favorably of affirmative action programs that specifically aim to increase graduation rates. But these colleges admit kids and then don't give them the help they need once they arrive. it seems really cynical to me. these poor kids are just being used as pawns in someone else's power struggle, racking up debt, fattening colleges bottom lines, then getting tossed aside. not good.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Since your argument is based upon increasing graduation rates, why haven't you provided data to support that argument? Without the data, it rings a bit hollow. Is such data actually kept? What's used as the barometer between an affirmative action admittance and a regular admittance? Are black students with a 3.5 GPA and 1400 SAT counted towards an affirmative action admittance or not?

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

why haven't you provided data to support that argument?

The 2013 6-year graduation rate for first-time, full-time undergraduate students who began their pursuit of a bachelor's degree at a 4-year degree-granting institution in fall 2007 was 59 percent. That is, 59 percent of first-time, full-time students who began seeking a bachelor's degree at a 4-year institution in fall 2007 completed the degree at that institution by 2013.

Among first-time, full-time undergraduate students who began seeking a bachelor's degree at a 4-year degree- granting institution in fall 2007, the 6-year graduation rate was 58 percent at public institutions, 65 percent at private nonprofit institutions, and 32 percent at private for-profit institutions. The 6-year graduation rate was 56 percent for males and 62 percent for females; it was higher for females than for males at both public (60 vs. 55 percent) and private nonprofit institutions (68 vs. 62 percent). However, at private for-profit institutions males had a higher graduation rate than females (36 vs. 28 percent).

Six-year graduation rates for first-time, full-time students who began seeking a bachelor's degree in fall 2007 varied according to institutions' level of selectivity. In particular, graduation rates were highest at postsecondary degree-granting institutions that were the most selective (i.e., had the lowest admissions acceptance rates), and graduation rates were lowest at institutions that were the least selective (i.e., had open admissions policies). For example, at 4-year institutions with open admissions policies, 34 percent of students completed a bachelor's degree within 6 years. At 4-year institutions where the acceptance rate was less than 25 percent of applicants, the 6-year graduation rate was 89 percent.

and on and on and on....You can then dive into all sorts of fun tables, from other links at this site.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

Have fun!!

 

[jerphisch]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

and on and on and on....You can then dive into all sorts of fun tables, from other links at this site.

https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=40

Have fun!!

So...you don't have the data?

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

So...you don't have the data?

No, the data is there and yet it's not. They don't breakdown those minority students that were enrolled through Affirmative Action vs those who made it in based solely upon merit, it might not be data provided by colleges and universities, but they do show black students performing far below whites and Asians. Meanwhile, they're performance is above Native Americans and Hispanics.

Here's the table with gender and race breakdowns.

The data through 2007, the percentage of students beginning classes in 2001 graduating in six years or less:

white students graduating at 62.9%,
black students at 40.8%,
Hispanic students at 51.9%,
Asian students at 70.6%,
Pacific Islander students at 48.5%,
Native American students 40.2%,
multi-racial students at 66.6%,
and non-resident alien students at 63.6%.

So the students most successful at graduating, in order, are Asians, then multi-racial, then non-resident aliens, then whites, then Hispanics, then Pacific Islanders, then blacks, then Native Americans.

Again, what this doesn't tell us is how affirmative action impacts these numbers. Perhaps the affirmative action students have improved the graduation rates of the students it's intended to help, perhaps not. We just don't know by this data set.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

they do show black students performing far below whites and Asians

In the Bakke vs UMichigan ruling, in his dissent Thomas cited research, from at that time, which indicated that, when focused on admissions rather than graduation rates, there was a cumulative rolling forward effect: since marginally qualified minorities were "socially promoted" as it were upward, there was a ripple effect all down the line.

The overall question was this: if the intent of affirmative action is to help minorities become successful in life (by giving them additional assistance during their late teen years to compensate for the disadvantages they had to endure before they reached that stage of life), then how and why did admissions ever become the measuring stick in the first place?

There is no clear correlation between admissions and success in life after graduation. The correlation comes with the degree, no? All the highly-touted statistics talk about the incremental value of a college degree. "College graduates have incomes xx% higher than non-graduates...." and on and on.

What matters more? good intentions or effective results?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Without discussing the merits of affirmative action directly, it seems to me that the whole affirmative action focus is on the wrong metric. Why is the question even about admissions practices in the first place, when the whole point of affirmative action is to increase graduation rates?

What's your basis for this statement? Are you suggesting that students gain *no* benefit from college until they receive that sheepskin at the end?

I would argue that every college course that exposes an underprivileged person to new information and new ways of thinking is valuable in its own right, so increasing graduation rates is not the WHOLE point of affirmative action - only part of it.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

The point of AA is to correct for the systemic racism that artificially deprives us of the contributions of people who suffer prejudice. If your delusion is there is no racism, then you erect an entire parallel rationale for and measurement of the efficacy of AA.

It's actually pretty easy as long as you find some "intellectuals" who are willing to be deliberately mendacious.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

All I can say, and I think I speak for all of us when I say:

God**** Asians.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

All I can say, and I think I speak for all of us when I say:

God**** Asians.

And Jews.

They're good with money, you know...

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

Oh, how could I forget?!

 

[burd]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

The point of AA is to correct for the systemic racism that artificially deprives us of the contributions of people who suffer prejudice. If your delusion is there is no racism, then you erect an entire parallel rationale for and measurement of the efficacy of AA.

It's actually pretty easy as long as you find some "intellectuals" who are willing to be deliberately mendacious.

So many people have convinced themselves, without even being aware that they have done so, that racism requires overt persecution or exclusion. Interesting how confirmation bias can allow us to deceive ourselves about bias itself.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

All I can say, and I think I speak for all of us when I say:

God**** Asians.

It's the old joke, "School is like a boner, it's long and hard. ...Unless you're Asian."

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

It's the old joke, "School is like a boner, it's long and hard. ...Unless you're Asian."

hahahaha, I've never heard that before.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Power of the SCOTUS VIII - I am certiorari we'll be arguing until Thanksgivin

I would argue that every college course that exposes an underprivileged person to new information and new ways of thinking is valuable in its own right, so increasing graduation rates is not the WHOLE point of affirmative action - only part of it.

While your former statement is true, under the current setup it comes at a very high cost. There are other, more sensible ways to accomplish the same thing.

It seems to me that it is a question of emphasis. Frankly, I was shocked at all of the graduation rate statistics, for everybody, being as low as they are. Maybe, for some socioeconomic groups across the board, four-year college is a sophisticated "scam" compared to community colleges, trade schools, and apprenticeship programs. Two out of five people who enroll in a four-year program haven't completed it after six years??? Yikes. Apparently it isn't only people admitted under affirmative action who are misplaced!!


Our plumber is one of the smartest people I know, he continually keeps abreast of all the new technologies and materials of his trade. He makes a nice living, and earns it through skill, knowledge, and hard work. His kind of intelligence is facilitated by working with his hands and his brain, he found a niche in which he thrives.



I actually place the "blame" on high school guidance counselors. They seem to care more about their own reputation than helping students in their care find the right fit. The counselors like to brag to their peers about how many of their students were enrolled in Ivy League schools, even if another school actually would have been better for the student.