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The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

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Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

They do test runs, but there can't be any track that you can be "certain of safety"

In the tracks at Calgary and Lake Placid, the make you sign a four page waiver that says "DEATH" in capital letters about five or six times times even to take a tourist ride down the track at about 40-60 mph. These guys are going much faster than that.

You're getting safe confused with responsible. And there's an ocean of difference between those two. Luge tracks are not safe. this one was not safe and not responsible

This isn't anything against you personally, just my opinion
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Nice of SportsCenter to <s>steal</s> borrow from the Dan Patrick Show yet again. They're discussing which was the bigger upset: The Miracle on Ice or Mike Tyson losing to Buster Douglas.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

You're getting safe confused with responsible. And there's an ocean of difference between those two. Luge tracks are not safe. this one was not safe and not responsible

This isn't anything against you personally, just my opinion

I know that there is no such thing as safe, but what is the defnition of 'responsible' in a daredevil sport where the threat of death drives the intrinsic appeal of the sport? Can responsible be really be defined?
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

I know that there is no such thing as safe, but what is the defnition of 'responsible' in a daredevil sport where the threat of death drives the intrinsic appeal of the sport? Can responsible be really be defined?

Can it be explicitly defined? Probably not. It's amorphous. But when athletes are complaining about their safety, the best athletes in the world and know what they're talking about... well, maybe there's a problem then.

And when it's in a sport as dangerous as the luge, the problem becomes far more magnified.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

I know that there is no such thing as safe, but what is the defnition of 'responsible' in a daredevil sport where the threat of death drives the intrinsic appeal of the sport? Can responsible be really be defined?

No, but a start might be not having huge pillars right next to the track for a human body going 80mph to catapult into.

Padding wouldn't have done a dang thing, the pillars being there was/is the problem.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

I know that there is no such thing as safe, but what is the defnition of 'responsible' in a daredevil sport where the threat of death drives the intrinsic appeal of the sport? Can responsible be really be defined?

Negligence as a legal standard frequently uses the idea of a "reasonable person (IOC as a corporate person here)" to determine when someone breached a duty.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

It's always a sad thing when a young person loses his life, especially in a situation where it seems so obvious what could have been done to prevent the tragedy. But is it all that obvious?

This track took considerable time to design and build. One assume those responsible consulted with the sports federations, the IOC and others who have designed and built courses. After construction and before the games countless inspections, measurements and test runs were conducted. There were literally tens of thousands of opportunities to discover a fatal flaw in the track, yet none was. This track isn't a carnival ride, put up tonight in time for the opening of the fair tomorrow.

I don't know if any competitions have been held on the track but there have certainly been numerous training runs. The track is fast, very fast. Yet as far as we know nobody suggested or demanded that Curve 13 posed an unusal or significant safety problem. And, at least so far, we havenl't heard about anyone demanding the particular pole involved needed to be padded.

Given the intense attention an $87 million dollar project cutomarily gets, particularly in the run up to an Olympics, I can only conclude that the reason why nobody demanded the padding on that particular pole is that they didn't think it was necessary. And we're not talking about civilians here. We're talking about athletes, coaches, trainers, designers and officials, all of whom were familiar with this track and none of whom apparantly saw a problem with the fatal pole.

And I'm confident that if somebody had raised the issue, the organizing committee would have fixed the problem. And if the sliders from the various events were convinced there was a safety problem it would have been a simple matter to threaten a boycott, issue a press release, and invite the media to listen to their concerns. I can't rule out the existance of a smoking gun document (sort of like Roger Beujolais (sp) telling NASA not to launch the Challenger) but absent that, I recommend we pause a moment before jumping to conclusions about who's responsible, who should pay and throwing around legal terms like negligence. One of the less attractive aspects of life in America these days is that we seem to want to head to the courhouse before we really know what happened and why.

Over the years the IOC has tried to keep from competing athletes who may be overmatched. Several Olympics ago the world was intrigued by Eddie the Eagle, the British ski jumper who was clearly outclassed, but plucky. The problem is, plucky can get you seriously injured or killed. That's why Eddie the Eagle would no longer be allowed to compete. I have no idea about the comptetance of the young man who was killed, but he evidently didn't have as much time on this course as desireable. Tragically, it's possible, the young man may have been overmatched by this course. We'll probably learn more in the coming days. Remember, the IOC does not conduct the competitions. The competitions are run by the various sports federations. Think of an Olympic Winter Games as a simultaneous world championship of all the winter sports, at one place and time.

Under any circumstances, this is a sad, sad day for this young man and his family, the Georgian Olympic team and the games in general.
 
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Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Well this piece makes it more difficult to call the Canucks Canucks and pretend we hate them. :p

Though that last line about Canadians being modest and not hardcore supporters of their country is a joke. Tom Brokaw has obviously never watched Team Canada play hockey.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Well this piece makes it more difficult to call the Canucks Canucks and pretend we hate them. :p

Though that last line about Canadians being modest and not hardcore supporters of their country is a joke. Tom Brokaw has obviously never watched Team Canada play hockey.
nah, we can still hate them, just think of Patrice Cormier
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Well this piece makes it more difficult to call the Canucks Canucks and pretend we hate them. :p

Though that last line about Canadians being modest and not hardcore supporters of their country is a joke. Tom Brokaw has obviously never watched Team Canada play hockey.

He also said that Prime Minister Stephen Harper went in front of Parliament to ask Canadians to be patriotic and wave the Maple Leaf. Problem? Parliament has been prorogued since December 30th and won't resume operations until March.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

This track took considerable time to design and build. One assume those responsible consulted with the sports federations, the IOC and others who have designed and built courses. After construction and before the games countless inspections, measurements and test runs were conducted. There were literally tens of thousands of opportunities to discover a fatal flaw in the track, yet none was. This track isn't a carnival ride, put up tonight in time for the opening of the fair tomorrow.
Then why watching the video is it blatantly obvious to anyone with any sort of engineering background (yes, I actually have one) that the end of the track with the steel poles running down it has to have been designed by the certifiably insane?

You don't even need an engineering background. Anyone with a lick of common sense could see it.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Then why watching the video is it blatantly obvious to anyone with any sort of engineering background (yes, I actually have one) that the end of the track with the steel poles running down it has to have been designed by the certifiably insane?

You don't even need an engineering background. Anyone with a lick of common sense could see it.
They showed the video on the broadcast tonight, the first time I'd seen it, and yes, as an engineer it was painfully obvious to me. All they had to do was put up plexiglass like at a hockey rink and the kid would have survived.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Then why watching the video is it blatantly obvious to anyone with any sort of engineering background (yes, I actually have one) that the end of the track with the steel poles running down it has to have been designed by the certifiably insane?

You don't even need an engineering background. Anyone with a lick of common sense could see it.

Okay, so why didn't the actual engineers who actually designed and built the thing, or the various officials who oversaw its contruction, or all of the other people involved who have ridden this track over the past two years not see it? Didn't even one of them have "common sense?"
 
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Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Okay, so why didn't the actual engineers who actually designed and built the thing, or the various officials who oversaw its contruction, or all of the other people involved not see it? Didn't even one of them have "common sense?"
I think that is the big question, why didn't they see this?
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

You're getting safe confused with responsible. And there's an ocean of difference between those two. Luge tracks are not safe. this one was not safe and not responsible

I think this is the main point that must be taken from all of this. No one doubts the inherent danger associated with a sport in which a human rides a sled at speeds approaching 100 mph, but with that said that ignores things that can be controlled, such as a series of steel beams at the very edge of the track immediately following a turn where instability on a track is most common. Were there no beams he surely would have been injured, but would the severity have been remotely similar had they not been there? You can't argue this is an "hindsight" approach to analyzing the track when competitors the night before are speaking about their life being on the line, a comment that would not have been made if this kind of a danger zone were commonplace in luge events on their world circuit.

To wit:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/olympics/2010/02/12/luge.death/

After a luger went a record 95.65 mph at a test event on the course last year, Josef Fendt, president of the International Luge Federation, expressed concerns that the track was too fast. "It makes me worry." Kumaritashvili's crash confirms those fears.

"It's not necessary to do the sport of luge at [96 mph]," says Christoph Schweiger, secretary general of the Austrian luge federation, who was at the course when Kumaritashvili's accident occurred. "To do the sport [in the 80-85 mph range] is fast enough."

A member of the U.S. Luge Association told SI that he had been informed privately by Olympic organizers that the sliding course was not meant to be so fast.

One U.S. slider says that some blame should be placed with Canadian Olympic organizers for not granting international athletes more access to the course before the Games. The Vancouver Organizing Committee did add extra training time for the sliding course because of its difficulty, but U.S. athletes told SI that they had had only around 40 practice runs, while the Canadians had hundreds. "The selfishness of the Canadian sliding federations just killed somebody," the athlete says. "We all know about keeping countries off the track [strategically], but at the world championships in Lake Placid [last year] they knew the course was difficult, so the track manager left the course open. We didn't always like that, but no one got hurt."

I'm sorry, but this screams negligence and poor handling.
 
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Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Yes the IOC gives the media sites the license to broadcast their events and some of those clips that were posted were news stories. If a youtube poster posts a video of a news story isn't that video now the property of the media source and not the IOC?

No. The NFL giving ESPN rights to broadcast their sporting event doesn't mean ESPN then has rights to sell said footage of that game to the Playboy network.

Put another way, it's the same reason why Martin Luther King Jr.'s estate still owns the rights to his "I have a dream" speech, and not the various networks that covered it.
 
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Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

This Ohno interview reminds me of Team Speed Skating. Organized chaos with crashes all over the place. So entertaining.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

this one was not safe and not responsible

That's your opinion, which is probably tainted by the proximity to the moment. There's no indication a court of law would necessarily find the same way, especially two years from now when it's not in the immediate forefront of everyone's mind.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

That's your opinion, which is probably tainted by the proximity to the moment. There's no indication a court of law would necessarily find the same way, especially two years from now when it's not in the immediate forefront of everyone's mind.

You might want to read Slap Shot's post below.
 
Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Re: The Official Thread of the Run-Up to the XXI Olympic Winter Games, Vancouver, Canada

Seriously, I defer to all of you with engineering and legal backgrounds. All I'm suggesting here is that we wait a moment and gather the facts before we go charging off with the torches and rope.

When you look at the Titanic disaster, reasonable people would ask: why didn't the Titanic slow down or alter course more radically than she did, why were the Board of Trade regulations on the number of lifeboats required so inadequate, why wasn't it standard practice for wireless sets to be manned 24/7? And the answer is: because the Titanic hadn't happened yet.

The same is true for any of our shocking tragedies: 9/11, Pearl Harbor, the Challenger, JFK's death and now, the loss of this boy's life. It all seems so clear after the fact.

edit: reading the SI piece posted by slap shot makes me wonder if this was one of those inertia deals, where everybody assumed somebody else would take care of the problem.
 
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