The new Super League is going down the tubes.

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

As I've mentioned before, there's no case here. It doesn't matter if the Sioux nickname was approved by 100% of the Sioux tribe and 100% of all North Dakota citizens. First Amendment claims ONLY apply to government regulation of speech. The NCAA is not the government - it is a voluntary private organization of schools that is completely free to impose whatever restrictions that it wants on its members (including what it can use in terms of nicknames and logos). If the University of North Dakota tried to file a lawsuit against the NCAA, it would immediately be dismissed because there's no claim in the first place - there's no such thing as a First Amendment violation for a private organization like the NCAA imposing speech restrictions. Believe me, I can't stand the NCAA on a whole lot of levels, but from a legal perspective, there's absolutely NOTHING that UND can do here unless it's willing to suffer a lot of consequences from the NCAA. Once again, I went to Illinois and saw this unfold at a school with a ton of financial resources and wealthy alums ready to fight, but those NCAA restrictions are absolutely killer for an athletic department, so the U of I ultimately had to fold since there literally is no basis for a lawsuit whatsoever.

The problem is we are talking about higher education institutions and they as a whole think they no better than everyone else...its why the ivy league schools were so quick to abandon native american nicknames and imagery. Here is a question. Did the NCAA institutions vote on some bylaw that states universities cannot have hostile and abusive imagery and nicknames? If not why isn't UND trying to push something through that removes any power from the NCAA to dictate nickname and imagery to its member institutions?

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

The problem is we are talking about higher education institutions and they as a whole think they no better than everyone else...its why the ivy league schools were so quick to abandon native american nicknames and imagery. Here is a question. Did the NCAA institutions vote on some bylaw that states universities cannot have hostile and abusive imagery and nicknames? If not why isn't UND trying to push something through that removes any power from the NCAA to dictate nickname and imagery to its member institutions?

The NCAA rule restricts schools from the use of "derogatory" nicknames during postseason events that are run by the NCAA:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2125735

It's not a ban on the nicknames themselves, per se, but the punishment of not being able to host NCAA postseason events is pretty detrimental to athletic departments.

As to why UND isn't leading a charge to change that rule, you halfway answered your own question. The vast majority of people that actually run universities (whether prestigious or not) are Ivy League-types, which is why that rule got passed in the first place. Trying to change that rule would be about as popular as a Tea Party candidate running for the mayor of San Francisco. If schools like Illinois and Florida State couldn't get the rule changed, I don't quite see how UND is suddenly going to make a different move (especially within the next 2 weeks).

 

[dggoddard]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I wish UND could keep the name, but there's just not sufficient up-side to continue this battle.

Millions of dollars in annual merchandise sales is plenty of "upside."

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Millions of dollars in annual merchandise sales is plenty of "upside."

Illinois had exponentially more merchandise sales with the Chief Illiniwek logo, including being one of the original cornerstone Nike schools (the largest schools that agreed to use Nike for their entire athletic department). That ended up not mattering. Whether it's right or wrong, UND is going to lose this fight.

 

[burd]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

As I've mentioned before, there's no case here. It doesn't matter if the Sioux nickname was approved by 100% of the Sioux tribe and 100% of all North Dakota citizens. First Amendment claims ONLY apply to government regulation of speech. The NCAA is not the government - it is a voluntary private organization of schools that is completely free to impose whatever restrictions that it wants on its members (including what it can use in terms of nicknames and logos). If the University of North Dakota tried to file a lawsuit against the NCAA, it would immediately be dismissed because there's no claim in the first place - there's no such thing as a First Amendment violation for a private organization like the NCAA imposing speech restrictions. Believe me, I can't stand the NCAA on a whole lot of levels, but from a legal perspective, there's absolutely NOTHING that UND can do here unless it's willing to suffer a lot of consequences from the NCAA. Once again, I went to Illinois and saw this unfold at a school with a ton of financial resources and wealthy alums ready to fight, but those NCAA restrictions are absolutely killer for an athletic department, so the U of I ultimately had to fold since there literally is no basis for a lawsuit whatsoever.

I'm aware of the Tarkanian decision regarding the NCAA's status on the state action question. Just clearing up some misconceptions regarding majoritarian principles and offering my 2 cents why NCAA's approach to the "harm" issue by seeing tribal consent makes little sense. But it is what it is, and UND will eventually have to deal with it, it seems.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

The NCAA rule restricts schools from the use of "derogatory" nicknames during postseason events that are run by the NCAA:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2125735

It's not a ban on the nicknames themselves, per se, but the punishment of not being able to host NCAA postseason events is pretty detrimental to athletic departments.

As to why UND isn't leading a charge to change that rule, you halfway answered your own question. The vast majority of people that actually run universities (whether prestigious or not) are Ivy League-types, which is why that rule got passed in the first place. Trying to change that rule would be about as popular as a Tea Party candidate running for the mayor of San Francisco. If schools like Illinois and Florida State couldn't get the rule changed, I don't quite see how UND is suddenly going to make a different move (especially within the next 2 weeks).

I wonder how close that vote was...

 

[Alton]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I wonder how close that vote was...

At the time the policy was adopted, the NCAA stated that it was by a unanimous vote of the 16-member Executive Committee.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I wonder how close that vote was...

I don't know, but seeing that the average university president is very liberal and the NCAA had considered "only" 18 schools to have offensive nicknames at its passage, I would guess that it was an overwhelming majority. Like I've said, if Illinois couldn't get the rule changed with their Big Ten ties (who have a TON of sway with the NCAA), then UND basically has a butterknife in a machine gun battle.

There are 2 choices for UND:

(1) Keep the nickname and face NCAA postseason restrictions OR

(2) Drop the nickname and avoid NCAA postseason restrictions.

No matter how much the alumni and state politicians and whoever else might complain or try to pass laws, there's no door #3. I'm not saying that it's right as someone that has a ton of Chief Illiniwek and Blackhawks gear. All I'm saying is that it is what it is. More powerful NCAA members (Illinois, St. John's, Marquette) have backed down despite losing a whole lot more in merchandise sales and national brand equity than what UND is facing. Florida State gets around the rule because they're literally paying off the Seminole tribe.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I don't know, but seeing that the average university president is very liberal and the NCAA had considered "only" 18 schools to have offensive nicknames at its passage, I would guess that it was an overwhelming majority. Like I've said, if Illinois couldn't get the rule changed with their Big Ten ties (who have a TON of sway with the NCAA), then UND basically has a butterknife in a machine gun battle.

There are 2 choices for UND:

(1) Keep the nickname and face NCAA postseason restrictions OR

(2) Drop the nickname and avoid NCAA postseason restrictions.

No matter how much the alumni and state politicians and whoever else might complain or try to pass laws, there's no door #3. I'm not saying that it's right as someone that has a ton of Chief Illiniwek and Blackhawks gear. All I'm saying is that it is what it is. More powerful NCAA members (Illinois, St. John's, Marquette) have backed down despite losing a whole lot more in merchandise sales and national brand equity than what UND is facing. Florida State gets around the rule because they're literally paying off the Seminole tribe.

door number 3 is get rid of a nickname all together, create a non-profit to sell merchandise with throwback merchandise and funnel money to the university.

 

[4four4]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Who cares about the UND nickname problems. Lets get back to talking about the Super league is going down the tubes. ;P

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

door number 3 is get rid of a nickname all together, create a non-profit to sell merchandise with throwback merchandise and funnel money to the university.

For this suggestion to have any teeth in it, that would require UND to license its Fighting Sioux logo to such non-profit, which would run afoul of the NCAA restrictions. Believe me - tons of people looked at this for the Chief Illiniwek image. If UND just lets another entity use the Fighting Sioux logo without a license, then it could be considered to be letting its IP rights lapse in such logo and other entities (almost certainly for-profit) could start using it without any type of payment to the university, too.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I don't know, but seeing that the average university president is very liberal and the NCAA had considered "only" 18 schools to have offensive nicknames at its passage, I would guess that it was an overwhelming majority. Like I've said, if Illinois couldn't get the rule changed with their Big Ten ties (who have a TON of sway with the NCAA), then UND basically has a butterknife in a machine gun battle.

There are 2 choices for UND:

(1) Keep the nickname and face NCAA postseason restrictions OR

(2) Drop the nickname and avoid NCAA postseason restrictions.

No matter how much the alumni and state politicians and whoever else might complain or try to pass laws, there's no door #3. I'm not saying that it's right as someone that has a ton of Chief Illiniwek and Blackhawks gear. All I'm saying is that it is what it is. More powerful NCAA members (Illinois, St. John's, Marquette) have backed down despite losing a whole lot more in merchandise sales and national brand equity than what UND is facing. Florida State gets around the rule because they're literally paying off the Seminole tribe.

The Fighting Sioux Law complicates matters much more than choosing from the two options you mentioned. It's important to note that essentially UND is not the one fighting this battle with the NCAA anymore. As the letter from the Big Sky Commish indicated, they're happy with the position of UND President Kelley who wants to retire the name and honor the contract ratified between the State Board of Education (SBOE) and the NCAA to retire the name. While your examples have some correlation, this matter is uniquely in the hands of North Dakota State Legislature now and they are the ones challenging the NCAA with the option of filing an antitrust suit. I agree the NCAA will not budge one inch and compromise their position despite the gallant efforts of ND governor and legislative officials, making the outcome of the meeting on August 12 fairly predictable. IMO the law is clearly unconstitutional as it creates legislative infringement against the SBOE. However, I don't think UND will violate state law either.

It appears from the following quote that the late Senator Bob Stenehjem had a contingency plan that provided for the possibility of repealing the law at some future date if it proved unconstitutional:

Separately, the North Dakota Senate's Republican majority leader, Bob Stenehjem of Bismarck, said the Legislature could revisit the issue during its planned special session in November, when lawmakers will consider health care legislation and redrawing North Dakota's legislative districts. Bob and Wayne Stenehjem are brothers. Bob Stenehjem said legislation to repeal the Fighting Sioux nickname law could be introduced during the special session, "and I think at some point in time, it probably will be."

The problem then becomes father time...UND doesn't have any! There are only three days between the meeting and the August 15 NCAA sanctions date and that's not enough time to repeal the law. If the NCAA grants an extension of time for the legislature to repeal the law, UND can drop the nickname and forgo NCAA sanctions. If they don't, UND will suffer NCAA sanctions and other difficulties involving boycotting by other schools and conferences. I personally think UND will not violate state law and will refuse to remove the nickname.

IMO at the end of the day, UND will bite the bullet, accept the NCAA sanctions and keep the Fighting Sioux name for the present time until the legislature sorts this out. A repeal process of state law is an arduous time consuming effort, as it requires a majority vote in both the House and the Senate. That might not happen until a special session in Nov-Dec. Will this affect the immediate development of the NCHC? You better believe it will!

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

No and it's important to understand that this is all water over the bridge for the most part. Personally if we all had your attitude, women would still not have the vote and we would still be dealing with white only bathrooms.

Women can vote?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Amusing that you call the Big Sky a second rate conference. If, by that, you mean that they are a member of what was called D1-AA, then instead of one a, indeed, it is a second A in the old reference.

But I suspect that you have no clue that the Big Sky won the FCS championship last year via Eastern Washington, and was runner up in the FCS championship in the two years prior in Montana. Being that UND probably joined the Big Sky for football, they are far from a second rate conference.

Then again, since you think it's ok to insult a group of people as long as the majority think it's ok, well.....

Here's a little SAT question for you:

Which of the following conferences is second rate?
a. Big Ten
b. Southeastern
c. Big Sky
d. Pac 10

Eastern Washington? Are you sh*tin' me Herm? A directional school? Nothwithstanding your inartful post, I didn't consult with anyone to conclude the Big Sky is a second rate conference. I have nothing against D1 AA in football. I spent an enjoyable season in Lake Charles, Louisiana traveling with the McNeese State Cowboys and doing a weekly TV show with coach Dr. Jack Doland. So lighten up, bunky.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

It is what it is. I believe a TON of NCAA rules are idiotic, but the point is that all of its members submit to its authority. It's NOT a free speech issue - that is only applicable to government regulation of speech. In contrast, the NCAA can absolutely regulate what its members can or cannot say, just as a private company that employs you can fire you for saying things in public that it might consider offensive.

I attended the University of Illinois, who had to remove its use of Chief Illiniwek after literally two decades of fighting with the NCAA. The school was at least allowed to keep the nickname by arguing that "Illini" could refer to all residents of the state of Illinois (just like a "Hoosier" describes an Indiana native). When faced at gunpoint, Illinois knew that it couldn't subject its athletic department to a ghetto of not being able to host NCAA events on campus, so it went as compromised as best as it could: it got rid of the Chief and any logos associated with it, but kept the name. UND is 100% certain to be in the same position unless, within the next 2 weeks, the descendants of the Sioux get a bunch of large payments from the school and some type of agreement to use their visage in the same manner that Florida State deals with the Seminole tribe.

According to a Bob Novak column, what finally convinced Illinois to give up the fight were threats from Chicago democrats to restrict funding to the university unless it capitulated. They probably would have lost in the long run anyway. The "indian approval" escape hatch offered by the NC$$ didn't do Illinois any good: the Illini Confederation had been wiped out in wars with other tribes. They didn't have anyone to appeal to for "permission" to use words in the public domain.

We're all just repeating our favorite arguments here. But one thing's for sure: there's no evidence whatsoever that Indians are "offended" by the use of these words and symbols. And you have to get yourself to the point where you believe anything the NC$$ wants to do is acceptable, because it's a "member's institution and schools can always drop out". Are there no limits on what the NC$$ can do? A few years ago the NC$$ decided that LSU had to wear purple jerseys at home football games. The Tigers have that great tradition of wearing white at home. And who in the world is hurt by that? One assumes all of their opponants had two sets. So for reasons that surpass understanding, the NC$$ figured this was their business and the Tigers had to wear purple. They hate purple. Ultimately sanity prevailed and LSU went back to the white jerseys. If this espisode isn't fussy, Barney Fife-like intrusion by the NC$$, then nothing is. The use of the terms "hostile" and "abusive" is rhetorical overkill. Chief Illiniwek was neither (as you know). Yes, yes, this is technically not a First Amendment issue. We're all a little loosy goosy about that. But shouldn't the august NC$$ attempt to respect the spirit of the Amendment? Establishing the premise that certain groups have control over language because their feelings are potentially hurt, is the heart of PC, and not in the American tradition. The vast majority of people involved in this effort in Champaign weren't Indians. They were trouble making PC punks. I say again, the available evidence is that Indians in overwhelming numbers don't care.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

As I've mentioned before, there's no case here. It doesn't matter if the Sioux nickname was approved by 100% of the Sioux tribe and 100% of all North Dakota citizens. First Amendment claims ONLY apply to government regulation of speech. The NCAA is not the government - it is a voluntary private organization of schools that is completely free to impose whatever restrictions that it wants on its members (including what it can use in terms of nicknames and logos). If the University of North Dakota tried to file a lawsuit against the NCAA, it would immediately be dismissed because there's no claim in the first place - there's no such thing as a First Amendment violation for a private organization like the NCAA imposing speech restrictions. Believe me, I can't stand the NCAA on a whole lot of levels, but from a legal perspective, there's absolutely NOTHING that UND can do here unless it's willing to suffer a lot of consequences from the NCAA. Once again, I went to Illinois and saw this unfold at a school with a ton of financial resources and wealthy alums ready to fight, but those NCAA restrictions are absolutely killer for an athletic department, so the U of I ultimately had to fold since there literally is no basis for a lawsuit whatsoever.

That doesn't make the NC$$ right.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

But one thing's for sure: there's no evidence whatsoever that Indians are "offended" by the use of these words and symbols. And you have to get yourself to the point where you believe anything the NC$$ wants to do is acceptable, because it's a "member's institution and schools can always drop out". Are there no limits on what the NC$$ can do?

There is plenty of evidence that the Sioux is offended...in fact, its posted every six months.

Frank's right. This is cut and dry. There is no freedom of speech issue...the NCAA is a voluntary association. None of this policy was invented out of thin air. Its exactly what the Universities want. And for better or worse, UND will change its logo...and if there was any debate about that, the Big Sky issue closed that chapter.

 

[cross cheque]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

There is plenty of evidence that the Sioux is offended...in fact, its posted every six months.

Frank's right. This is cut and dry. There is no freedom of speech issue...the NCAA is a voluntary association. None of this policy was invented out of thin air. Its exactly what the Universities want. And for better or worse, UND will change its logo...and if there was any debate about that, the Big Sky issue closed that chapter.

I absolutely agree with you, it's very "cut and dry" and it's not a freedom of speech issue. The fighting sioux moniker is already out the door but still looking in the window on it's way to the curb but I don't have to like it. What is unfortunate about the entire process is that the sioux tribes really didn't have much of a say in any of what has happened and after all isn't it their decision? This whole process has been a joke and the punchline will be August 12th when the NCAA puts their fingers in their ears while ND's delegation delivers a 5 gallon bucket of verbal dung. Game, set, match.

 

[Skeeterman]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Only SCSU can save this league from going down the tubes. By the way, where are the tubes?

 

[goldy_331]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Only SCSU can save this league from going down the tubes. By the way, where are the tubes?

You want to give those tubes an enema, don't you?