The new Super League is going down the tubes.

[HarleyMC]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

The Fighting Sioux BILL drafted by the North Dakota State Legislature and signed by the North Dakota Governor Jack Dalrymple earlier this year requiring mandatory use of the the logo and moniker goes into effect today (August 1). It is now a violation of ND state law for the University of North Dakota to retire their nickname. The FSB clearly renders juristic powers to the ND attorney general to consider filing an anti-trust suit against the NCAA if they require UND to retire the nickname:

The Fighting Sioux bill states University of North Dakota athletic teams shall be known as the Fighting Sioux. Neither UND nor the state Board of Higher Education may take action to discontinue the use of the nickname or logo. It requires the attorney general to consider filing a federal antitrust claim against the NCAA if the association takes any action to penalize UND for using the nickname and logo.

The NCAA is a voluntary member association that promulgates its own regulations and guidelines. Any member school that does not align itself with those policies and regulations may be subject to imposed sanctions. The NCAA has consistently reiterated its stance that UND must retire the nickname by August 15 or suffer postseason restrictions and sanctions. As I mentioned before, August 12 is the date for the "highnoon showdown" between ND state officials and the NCAA, which is another in a long line of member protests against the NCAA that have historically favored the NCAA's ruling on issues of this nature. This could get ugly and the NCHC members are most likely watching this with keen interest to see how the ND state officials handle this delicate, controversial and emotionally volatile issue.

Adding further complications to the issue is the LETTER sent in June 2011 by Big Sky Pres. Doug Fullerton to Robert Kelley, indicating that if UND does not retire the name, most likely the presidents of the schools in the Big Sky Conference will vote to give UND the boot.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

The Fighting Sioux BILL drafted by the North Dakota State Legislature and signed by the North Dakota Governor Jack Dalrymple earlier this year requiring mandatory use of the the logo and moniker goes into effect today (August 1). It is now a violation of ND state law for the University of North Dakota to retire their nickname. The FSB clearly renders juristic powers to the ND attorney general to consider filing an anti-trust suit against the NCAA if they require UND to retire the nickname:


The NCAA is a voluntary member association that promulgates its own regulations and guidelines. Any member school that does not align itself with those policies and regulations may be subject to imposed sanctions. The NCAA has consistently reiterated its stance that UND must retire the nickname by August 15 or suffer postseason restrictions and sanctions. As I mentioned before, August 12 is the date for the "highnoon showdown" between ND state officials and the NCAA, which is another in a long line of member protests against the NCAA that have historically favored the NCAA's ruling on issues of this nature. This could get ugly and the NCHC members are most likely watching this with keen interest to see how the ND state officials handle this delicate, controversial and emotionally volatile issue.

Adding further complications to the issue is the LETTER sent in June 2011 by Big Sky Pres. Doug Fullerton to Robert Kelley, indicating that if UND does not retire the name, most likely the presidents of the schools in the Big Sky Conference will vote to give UND the boot.

I fear you may be right. As to the NCHA schools, they are certainly aware of this "problem." Even the UNO coach may have some understanding. As to the Big Sky, it would just be so wrong for them to boot the Sioux out of their second rate conference over this "controversy." And it would be equally wrong to retire one of the great nicknames in college sports because of political correctness and the incomprehensible desire of a tiny band of Indians to screw their state's flagship university. A university which probably does more than any other to help the native people of its state.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I fear you may be right. As to the NCHA schools, they are certainly aware of this "problem." Even the UNO coach may have some understanding. As to the Big Sky, it would just be so wrong for them to boot the Sioux out of their second rate conference over this "controversy." And it would be equally wrong to retire one of the great nicknames in college sports because of political correctness and the incomprehensible desire of a tiny band of Indians to screw their state's flagship university. A university which probably does more than any other to help the native people of its state.

IMHO, it's unfortunate that the knuckle draggers in the ND state legislature dropped the ball and passed a bill, instead of using the overwhelming email response that favored keeping the name to adopt a referendum and initiate a statewide vote. That would carry much more authority as a substantially valid voice of the people of North Dakota than attempting to intimidate the NCAA by passing the FSB. Now ND is faced with the ironic reality of a sending a group of lily-white politicians (apparently Governor Dalrymple will lead the delegation) and higher ed officials to Indianapolis to meet with NCAA officials to decide what does and does not insult Native American tribes, of which neither (Spirit Lake or Standing Rock) was even invited to the meeting. This is both comical and pathetic.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

IMHO, it's unfortunate that the knuckle draggers in the ND state legislature dropped the ball and passed a bill, instead of using the overwhelming email response that favored keeping the name to adopt a referendum and initiate a statewide vote. That would carry much more authority as a substantially valid voice of the people of North Dakota than attempting to intimidate the NCAA by passing the FSB. Now ND is faced with the ironic reality of a sending a group of lily-white politicians (apparently Governor Dalrymple will lead the delegation) and higher ed officials to Indianapolis to meet with NCAA officials to decide what does and does not insult Native American tribes, of which neither (Spirit Lake or Standing Rock) was even invited to the meeting. This is both comical and pathetic.

Got it. The more fundamental question to me is: even if Native American tribes are "insulted," how does that override the First Amendment, and what business is it of the NC$$ anyway? I should think they would have other, more pressing matters, to attend to: Auburn, Ohio State, LSU, USC etc, etc. Evidently not.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Got it. The more fundamental question to me is: even if Native American tribes are "insulted," how does that override the First Amendment, and what business is it of the NC$$ anyway? I should think they would have other, more pressing matters, to attend to: Auburn, Ohio State, LSU, USC etc, etc. Evidently not.

No and it's important to understand that this is all water over the bridge for the most part. Personally if we all had your attitude, women would still not have the vote and we would still be dealing with white only bathrooms.

 

[willythekid]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

No and it's important to understand that this is all water over the bridge for the most part. Personally if we all had your attitude, women would still not have the vote and we would still be dealing with white only bathrooms.

what are your feelings on the people of Standing Rock not being able to vote?

 

[SJHovey]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

The Fighting Sioux BILL drafted by the North Dakota State Legislature and signed by the North Dakota Governor Jack Dalrymple earlier this year requiring mandatory use of the the logo and moniker goes into effect today (August 1). It is now a violation of ND state law for the University of North Dakota to retire their nickname. The FSB clearly renders juristic powers to the ND attorney general to consider filing an anti-trust suit against the NCAA if they require UND to retire the nickname:



The NCAA is a voluntary member association that promulgates its own regulations and guidelines. Any member school that does not align itself with those policies and regulations may be subject to imposed sanctions. The NCAA has consistently reiterated its stance that UND must retire the nickname by August 15 or suffer postseason restrictions and sanctions. As I mentioned before, August 12 is the date for the "highnoon showdown" between ND state officials and the NCAA, which is another in a long line of member protests against the NCAA that have historically favored the NCAA's ruling on issues of this nature. This could get ugly and the NCHC members are most likely watching this with keen interest to see how the ND state officials handle this delicate, controversial and emotionally volatile issue.

Adding further complications to the issue is the LETTER sent in June 2011 by Big Sky Pres. Doug Fullerton to Robert Kelley, indicating that if UND does not retire the name, most likely the presidents of the schools in the Big Sky Conference will vote to give UND the boot.

So if they just stop using the nickname is someone going to jail?

In the next couple of weeks the state officials will apparently take one last effort at changing the NCAA's mind, and when unsuccessful, UND will go ahead and retire the name. A lot of commotion about nothing.

 

[alfablue]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

I fear you may be right. As to the NCHA schools, they are certainly aware of this "problem." Even the UNO coach may have some understanding. As to the Big Sky, it would just be so wrong for them to boot the Sioux out of their second rate conference over this "controversy." And it would be equally wrong to retire one of the great nicknames in college sports because of political correctness and the incomprehensible desire of a tiny band of Indians to screw their state's flagship university. A university which probably does more than any other to help the native people of its state.

Amusing that you call the Big Sky a second rate conference. If, by that, you mean that they are a member of what was called D1-AA, then instead of one a, indeed, it is a second A in the old reference.

But I suspect that you have no clue that the Big Sky won the FCS championship last year via Eastern Washington, and was runner up in the FCS championship in the two years prior in Montana. Being that UND probably joined the Big Sky for football, they are far from a second rate conference.

Then again, since you think it's ok to insult a group of people as long as the majority think it's ok, well.....

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Amusing that you call the Big Sky a second rate conference. If, by that, you mean that they are a member of what was called D1-AA, then instead of one a, indeed, it is a second A in the old reference.

But I suspect that you have no clue that the Big Sky won the FCS championship last year via Eastern Washington, and was runner up in the FCS championship in the two years prior in Montana. Being that UND probably joined the Big Sky for football, they are far from a second rate conference.

Then again, since you think it's ok to insult a group of people as long as the majority think it's ok, well.....

We're talking about WORDS here, WORDS are protected. If someone wanted to create a university and nickname their athletic team the coons, its not YOUR problem. Just like the NCAA shouldn't give a crap what nickname a member institution chooses to use. A bunch of crusty white people in INDIANapolis, INDIANa should not be in the business of deciding what is hostile & abusive and deciding to force member institutions to change their nickname.

 

[greenG]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Got it. The more fundamental question to me is: even if Native American tribes are "insulted," how does that override the First Amendment, and what business is it of the NC$$ anyway? I should think they would have other, more pressing matters, to attend to: Auburn, Ohio State, LSU, USC etc, etc. Evidently not.

The NCAA is the organization that went after programs whose media guides were too big! There is nothing too trivial for the No Clue At All to pursue. Just be glad that this small interest group of "insulted" tribes has made no headway in professional sports where there is the money and the will to oppose them. When the Cleveland, Kansas City, Atlanta, and Washington start changing their nicknames and logos we'll know we have a genuine movement on our hands. Without NCAA support none of this happens. Without the support of the schools who allows their members to be bullied into abandoning their time-honored traditions, the NCAA doesn't happen. If the Big Six conferences ever decide to govern themselves the environment will change drastically.

 

[willythekid]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Then again, since you think it's ok to insult a group of people as long as the majority think it's ok, well.....

Do you really believe that is what UND is doing to the Sioux tribes in the area, insulting them? I believe that if the majority of local Sioux indians think the nickname should be retained then it should be so... BTW, how big or small of a minority do you believe should be able to dictate over what the majority wants?

 

[cross cheque]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Then again, since you think it's ok to insult a group of people as long as the majority think it's ok, well.....

Precisely, in fact I wouldn't dream of insulting groups like the Tea Party because they have feelings too and since they are a minority we should all vote for Michelle Bachman so that she and her husband can cure homosexuality with "treatments" in their clinic. Also, she has some great ideas about outlawing pornography.......or maybe it's time to stop listening to special interest groups led by divorced women who cruise the internet looking for a new crusade like outlawing checking in youth hockey.

 

[alfablue]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Never mind- but one thing- the rights of a single person outweigh the wants of the majority. That's how it's supposed to work.

You are not forced into a single religion, forced to think a specific way, forced to (or not) have a gun, etc. There's a whole document of my rights over the majority.

 

[cross cheque]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Never mind- but one thing- the rights of a single person outweigh the wants of the majority. That's how it's supposed to work.

You are not forced into a single religion, forced to think a specific way, forced to (or not) have a gun, etc. There's a whole document of my rights over the majority.

You have the right to remain silent, start exercising.

 

[burd]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Do you really believe that is what UND is doing to the Sioux tribes in the area, insulting them? I believe that if the majority of local Sioux indians think the nickname should be retained then it should be so... BTW, how big or small of a minority do you believe should be able to dictate over what the majority wants?

That's where this case defies analysis. It's a tweener.

If it were before the US Supremes as an equal protection case or something similar, the Court's couter-majoritarian role would come into play, and the mere fact that a majority supported it would not save it from being possibly struck down. If a state passed a law requiring African Americans to sit at the back of the bus and the Supremes held that the law violated the 14th and 5th Amendments, African Americans could not validate the law by voting to accept it.

In this case, the NCAA has taken the position that the tribes can acquiesce, which makes no sense if the harm is real and ongoing. But that's where we are. Ownership of an image? Sure, vote on it. But acquiescing to harm that is presumably real and serious enough to trigger serious sanctions in the first place? No logic there.

I wish UND could keep the name, but there's just not sufficient up-side to continue this battle.

Oh well, the gophs will still suck, whatever the outcome.

 

[bcfan131]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Where are all of the people outraged about the Notre Dame Fighting IRISH? I mean they use a leprechaun as their mascot! What a bunch of RACISTS!!!!!

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

We're talking about WORDS here, WORDS are protected. If someone wanted to create a university and nickname their athletic team the coons, its not YOUR problem. Just like the NCAA shouldn't give a crap what nickname a member institution chooses to use. A bunch of crusty white people in INDIANapolis, INDIANa should not be in the business of deciding what is hostile & abusive and deciding to force member institutions to change their nickname.

It is what it is. I believe a TON of NCAA rules are idiotic, but the point is that all of its members submit to its authority. It's NOT a free speech issue - that is only applicable to government regulation of speech. In contrast, the NCAA can absolutely regulate what its members can or cannot say, just as a private company that employs you can fire you for saying things in public that it might consider offensive.

I attended the University of Illinois, who had to remove its use of Chief Illiniwek after literally two decades of fighting with the NCAA. The school was at least allowed to keep the nickname by arguing that "Illini" could refer to all residents of the state of Illinois (just like a "Hoosier" describes an Indiana native). When faced at gunpoint, Illinois knew that it couldn't subject its athletic department to a ghetto of not being able to host NCAA events on campus, so it went as compromised as best as it could: it got rid of the Chief and any logos associated with it, but kept the name. UND is 100% certain to be in the same position unless, within the next 2 weeks, the descendants of the Sioux get a bunch of large payments from the school and some type of agreement to use their visage in the same manner that Florida State deals with the Seminole tribe.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

It is what it is. I believe a TON of NCAA rules are idiotic, but the point is that all of its members submit to its authority. It's NOT a free speech issue - that is only applicable to government regulation of speech. In contrast, the NCAA can absolutely regulate what its members can or cannot say, just as a private company that employs you can fire you for saying things in public that it might consider offensive.

I attended the University of Illinois, who had to remove its use of Chief Illiniwek after literally two decades of fighting with the NCAA. The school was at least allowed to keep the nickname by arguing that "Illini" could refer to all residents of the state of Illinois (just like a "Hoosier" describes an Indiana native). When faced at gunpoint, Illinois knew that it couldn't subject its athletic department to a ghetto of not being able to host NCAA events on campus, so it went as compromised as best as it could: it got rid of the Chief and any logos associated with it, but kept the name. UND is 100% certain to be in the same position unless, within the next 2 weeks, the descendants of the Sioux get a bunch of large payments from the school and some type of agreement to use their visage in the same manner that Florida State deals with the Seminole tribe.

Why are the member institutions required to follow Title IX but the NCAA can regulate speech?

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

That's where this case defies analysis. It's a tweener.

If it were before the US Supremes as an equal protection case or something similar, the Court's couter-majoritarian role would come into play, and the mere fact that a majority supported it would not save it from being possibly struck down. If a state passed a law requiring African Americans to sit at the back of the bus and the Supremes held that the law violated the 14th and 5th Amendments, African Americans could not validate the law by voting to accept it.

In this case, the NCAA has taken the position that the tribes can acquiesce, which makes no sense if the harm is real and ongoing. But that's where we are. Ownership of an image? Sure, vote on it. But acquiescing to harm that is presumably real and serious enough to trigger serious sanctions in the first place? No logic there.

I wish UND could keep the name, but there's just not sufficient up-side to continue this battle.

Oh well, the gophs will still suck, whatever the outcome.

As I've mentioned before, there's no case here. It doesn't matter if the Sioux nickname was approved by 100% of the Sioux tribe and 100% of all North Dakota citizens. First Amendment claims ONLY apply to government regulation of speech. The NCAA is not the government - it is a voluntary private organization of schools that is completely free to impose whatever restrictions that it wants on its members (including what it can use in terms of nicknames and logos). If the University of North Dakota tried to file a lawsuit against the NCAA, it would immediately be dismissed because there's no claim in the first place - there's no such thing as a First Amendment violation for a private organization like the NCAA imposing speech restrictions. Believe me, I can't stand the NCAA on a whole lot of levels, but from a legal perspective, there's absolutely NOTHING that UND can do here unless it's willing to suffer a lot of consequences from the NCAA. Once again, I went to Illinois and saw this unfold at a school with a ton of financial resources and wealthy alums ready to fight, but those NCAA restrictions are absolutely killer for an athletic department, so the U of I ultimately had to fold since there literally is no basis for a lawsuit whatsoever.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Re: The new Super League is going down the tubes.

Why are the member institutions required to follow Title IX but the NCAA can regulate speech?

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Title IX is a federal law. If a school doesn't comply with Title IX, then it is literally breaking the law. In contrast, NCAA rules are the rules of a private organization, which is no different than, say, the rules of a private golf club. The NCAA can tell its members what it will allow for nicknames, just as a private golf club could restrict your speech, or the NBA can fine players that criticize refs, or your employer can fire you if you make racist remarks, etc.