The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Not every school and not every kid.

Home schooling can't give you the expertise of a dozen different teachers and the perspective of dozens of smart and diverse classmates. If you are going to compare ideal home schooling then compare it against ideal public education. There is no home schooling in the world that is remotely as good as the public education I was lucky enough to get.

Moral: be born middle class, but in a rich school district. That way you don't get sent to Choate, but you can piggyback off the schools the tools who do send their kids to Choate still have to pay for.

When ideal public education is available, I'll compare to it. Diverse classmates is a mixed bag, but the benefits can certainly be captured through cooperative activities and other social settings. The limited expertise of parents in certain subjects, particularly at higher grade levels is one of the biggest challenges, but can be addressed in various ways, though I'll concede that not all people home schooling address this issue to the extent they should. But, even with that shortcoming, I'll take home schooling any day over what is in reality available in your typical public school.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Correct.

There are two big knocks on home schooling -- kids don't learn how to socialize with other kids, and parents' intellectual blind spots are reproduced in the next generation.

Largely agree with Lynah. The existance of home schooling is fine. IMO its not a good educational choice. And these two above points are a big reason why.

When top corporations make decision...they don't get all the data and sit in a closet somewhere. The get data, discuss, share ideas, research, discuss and then decide. That's largely because learning and decision making is most effective in a collaborative setting.

Also, the idea of isolated POVs of the parents is certainly one issue. Parents may have a slant on reality or current affairs. But also, there are new technologies, innovations, ways of doing things that permiate high schools. Ever watch how a teenager in high school approaches their life? Its radically different than you as a parent would. I don't consider it wrong...I consider it forward looking.

Also, there is the whole social interaction piece. At some point, society and the marketplace reward you for your ability to interact with others. Its a comfort level and skill you really want to have...you may get it in home schooling...but would likely be at a disadvantage.

Lastly, many find high school the funnest time in their life. Do you really want to deprive that to your child?

Not sure of test results (which may be higher)....but most tests I've seen test neither overly complex problem solving nor social skills...both of which come from a social schooling option.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

As many have already noted, the "best" results are a combination of home schooling and community schooling. We've had home schooling as part of the curriculum for generations in many families, although it has gone under the more prosaic name of "helping the kids with their homework" or "teaching the kid how to replace leaky faucet washers" or "having the kid help you change the oil" or whatever (I guess the term "parental involvement" covers much of that....)

It's also unusual for someone not attending a community school to be socially isolated from their peers.

Given the proliferation of technology and learning styles, one has to wonder how much longer the "traditional" community school can survive. Many communities are underwater with benefit obligations; meanwhile we have more and more people in their 60s and 70s who are still quite energetic and sharp and full of vitality who will need to supplement their income. How many of them will become available for private or small-session tutoring?

Hmm....this is a good idea for a new internet business, no? Lining up skilled tutors in specialized subjects on one side and finding those who want their children tutored in specialized subjects on the other side? especially as much of this (e.g., foreign language instruction) can be done on-line (at least until the overburdened electrical grid fails....).

It's rarely been either all community schooling or all home schooling, it's usually a mix of both, and more and more parents will determine the appropriate proportions, especially as a "third way" becomes more and more predominant.

I can't quite recall the exact quote, it goes something like "it's only a problem until you recognize the opportunity."

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Private Schools and Home Schools get to pick their students. If Public Schools could do that they'd have the same results.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Private Schools and Home Schools get to pick their students. If Public Schools could do that they'd have the same results.

They used to be able to. The mechanisms were called "farming" and "the army."

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Private Schools and Home Schools get to pick their students. If Public Schools could do that they'd have the same results.

...which I have no problem with. But that doesn't mean we stop funding the education of this country's youth...wherever they learn.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Private Schools and Home Schools get to pick their students. If Public Schools could do that they'd have the same results.

Private schools will often take all comers, and offer scholarships to poor families. Some of the Catholic schools see it as their duty to take bad students, with their parents seeing them as their last hopes. That's the way it was in my hometown with St. Joseph's school.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I am impressed. Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees, with some being quite passionate about it.

Bob always seems to know someone that can support his angle with an anecdote. I however can't remember the last time I discussed home schooling with anyone and our family gatherings are never devoid of politics.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Bob always seems to know someone that can support his angle with an anecdote. I however can't remember the last time I discussed home schooling with anyone and our family gatherings are never devoid of politics.

I always suspected you didn't care about education.

Do you have relatives who home school or are involved in the education system? If you don't, then it's understandable it wouldn't come up. As for me, I have several relatives who home school (and several who don't), and my wife and dad were both teachers as well as several other relatives (not to mention friends), so no surprise it's a subject of interest in my circles.

Me, I'm a product of the public school system. Explains a lot, eh?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Private Schools and Home Schools get to pick their students. If Public Schools could do that they'd have the same results.

I don't think people who home school get to pick their students. Your kids are your kids. No trading them for the neighbors kids so you get better home schoolers.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I am impressed. Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees, with some being quite passionate about it.

I always suspected you didn't care about education.

Do you have relatives who home school or are involved in the education system? If you don't, then it's understandable it wouldn't come up. As for me, I have several relatives who home school (and several who don't), and my wife and dad were both teachers as well as several other relatives (not to mention friends), so no surprise it's a subject of interest in my circles.

Bob, you claimed that, "Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees". I sincerely doubt these individuals home school therefore they don't have anything to do with your, "several relatives who home school" which brings us back to discussing a non-hot topic with all these liberals you know.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Private Schools and Home Schools get to pick their students. If Public Schools could do that they'd have the same results.

Actually, several scientific studies have debunked that myth. Catholic schools who accept the same cross-section of the population still get better results than public schools, and it appear that the same is probably true of charter schools as well. (I've seen the reports and I'm not motivated enough to track them down, so you can either call me a liar, take my word for it, or search them out yourself. IIRC, the people who produced the studies were hired by "non-partisan" foundations who wanted to direct philanthropic money into education in a way that would make the biggest difference, and so they were not performed under conditions that would have pressure to bias the results).

Anyway, the people who conducted the studies just looked at the data, which had statistical significance that Catholic schools even when adjusted for the so-called selectivity bias still did produce better results. It did not explore causality. However, the authors did theorize that the difference in results given the same population served may well have stemmed from differential expectations and better discipline in the classroom (Note, these were elementary school students in the studies; one can surmise that a similar study of high schools might produce different outcomes because gangbangers can't safely be disciplined.....).


I'm reminded of a joke about Jewish parents who wanted their son to learn arithmetic, he wasn't learning in the public school, they hired private tutors and that did not work either; and so finally in desperation they sent him to a Catholic school. Amazingly, he really applied himself and started to learn! His parents wondered why, and finally their son told them; "you know what they do there to kids who don't learn math? they nail them to a big plus sign and hang them on the wall as an example of what might happen to you if you don't study!"

 

[FreshFish]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Home schooling can't give you the expertise of a dozen different teachers

Memo to Kepler: there is this new invention called the "internet." People can use it to search out on-line classroom lectures, course syllabus, training material, interactive learning tools, and the like. In fact, using this really cool invention allows you to draw upon more expertise than one generally can find in a brick-and-mortar classroom setting, unless of course those schools also avail themselves of this new invention to improve teacher training and to supplement classroom work.

 

[geezer]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

There was a pretty well-researched story out there that disagrees with most of you, saying that the excellence of education in Finland isn't due to selectivity of students or private schools, but may in fact be assisted by the fact that they lump everyone together in their truly Socialist system - no AP, no private schools, etc. But they do give the kids a lot more leeway and "free time" while they're in school where we are ultra-structured.
I think this was it in the Atlantic.

Decades ago, when the Finnish school system was badly in need of reform, the goal of the program that Finland instituted, resulting in so much success today, was never excellence. It was equity.

 

[goldy_331]

There was a pretty well-researched story out there that disagrees with most of you, saying that the excellence of education in Finland isn't due to selectivity of students or private schools, but may in fact be assisted by the fact that they lump everyone together in their truly Socialist system - no AP, no private schools, etc. But they do give the kids a lot more leeway and "free time" while they're in school where we are ultra-structured.
I think this was it in the Atlantic.

Maybe the Finns are just smarter than all the rest of us.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Maybe the Finns are just smarter than all the rest of us.

In Finland these girls are a 4.

Case closed.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Bob, you claimed that, "Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees". I sincerely doubt these individuals home school therefore they don't have anything to do with your, "several relatives who home school" which brings us back to discussing a non-hot topic with all these liberals you know.

You're confusing two different statements. The fact that it's a topic of discussion within certain circles I'm in that tend toward home schooling does not preclude that I also talk to other people in other settings that don't like home schooling. I think it's healthy to circulate in a variety of different circles, which vary in their outlooks on various things. Thus, I can talk to both relatives who like home schooling and non-relatives who don't like home schooling.

 

[geezer]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

In Finland these girls are a 4.

Case closed.

He said, "smarter" than the rest of us.
But seriously, their education system was sucking pretty badly before the current system was implemented so it's not just natural talent at test-taking.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

He said, "smarter" than the rest of us.

They live there, we do not.

Who's smarter?

 

[geezer]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

They live there, we do not.

Who's smarter?

OK I gotcha.
In my defense, my wife is 100% Finnish. Like Lucas Davenport's, but hotter.