The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I supported the First Amendment for free by choosing not to eat at Chik-Fil-A.

Not sure how not eating somewhere supports the First Amendment, but I'm glad you do support it.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Not sure how not eating somewhere supports the First Amendment, but I'm glad you do support it.

Are you actually unfamiliar with the phrase "voting with your feet?"

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Not sure how not eating somewhere supports the First Amendment, but I'm glad you do support it.

How does it not work both ways?

 

[geezer]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

To put our problems in perspective, India's blackout now affects 10% of the population. Of. The. Earth.

that's incredible. The forthcoming viral plague is going to create an awful mess over there.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Sounds like an argument in favor of home schooling!

You may find this odd but I have no problem with home schooling. Any way you can instill a love of learning and a healthy curiosity in your child prepares him or her for a life of learning from others, and that's the key.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Had a good Chick-fil-A sandwich and waffle fries last night with the wife. Fun time, though it took awhile to get the food. They were actually almost out of food, as even with stocking up they hadn't anticipated the size of the crowds. Glad to spend $8.32 to support the First Amendment any day.

To be fair, there have been Gay Pride parades for years, so it's only right that there should be a Homophobia Parade.

 

[St. Clown]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

To be fair, there have been Gay Pride parades for years, so it's only right that there should be a Homophobia Parade.

Excuse me, but the preferred nomenclature is Straight Pride Parade, and it's accompanied by a rainbow made up with different shades of grey, but not 50 of them, because that's the Devil's work.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Excuse me, but the preferred nomenclature is Straight Pride Parade, and it's accompanied by a rainbow made up with different shades of grey, but not 50 of them, because that's the Devil's work.

I stand corrected.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Are you actually unfamiliar with the phrase "voting with your feet?"

Which isn't the same as freedom of speech being discussed here.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

To be fair, there have been Gay Pride parades for years, so it's only right that there should be a Homophobia Parade.

You seem to think it funny to call people homophobes. I'm not offended, as I've learned to have thick skin about such things, but don't pretend such things are funny to say.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

You may find this odd but I have no problem with home schooling. Any way you can instill a love of learning and a healthy curiosity in your child prepares him or her for a life of learning from others, and that's the key.

I am impressed. Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees, with some being quite passionate about it.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Which isn't the same as freedom of speech being discussed here.

Wow, you're serious aren't you? I would be quite amused to read your explanation of why choosing to eat at a restaurant can send a message, but choosing to avoid a restaurant cannot - keeping in mind that avoiding Chik-Fil-A in no way indicates any opposition to Cathy's right to say whatever he wants, no matter how stupid or hateful it is.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I am impressed. Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees, with some being quite passionate about it.

Most liberals I know couldn't care less about it, and I have a strong suspicion I know a lot more liberals than you*.

Several of my coworkers home school their kids. It is explicitly religious and political -- everything is taught as subservient to the current form of aggressive evangelical Christianity (e.g., they've fallen for Creationism in a big way). They have stay at home wives who teach the kids through those programs run out of big Christian clearinghouse education companies. So in a lot of ways they are getting a highly skewed view of the world.

But. The kids have accountability to an authority they respect (their parents), they get attention tailored specifically to them, and their schooling is paced to them -- the smart kids fly through the lessons and the limited ones work ten times harder to achieve a tenth as much, but still feel achievement and pride. Those are good things.

These kids aren't going to be the next generation of poets or scientists. But they will make completely adequate citizens, businessmen, soldiers, engineers... and home school teachers. Given their upbringing their ideological horizons are always going to be very limited anyway, so it's not a huge loss that they won't be exposed to people quite unlike them. They'll be happy and productive and probably stay out of trouble.

Now, most families can't afford to to do what these families are doing -- both parents work, for one thing. And the majority of families send their kids to public schools with great success, because they engage with the kids on their homework, talk to the teachers, etc. But for the lump on the bottom of families who don't have a high regard for education, their kids are probably screwed. We blame that on our schools, but for the most part it's bad ingredients leading to a bad product, regardless of how good the process is.

(* In fact, the vast majority of liberals I know utterly defy the stereotypes put forward by the right wing media, just as the vast majority of conservatives I know utterly defy the stereotypes put forward by the left wing media. Politically active people like us are very weird exceptions to the general population -- we are much more "nailed" by our opponents' characterizations than the majority. It's like the Tom Stoppard line, "We're actors. We're the opposite of people.")

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I am impressed. Most liberals I know hate home schooling to various degrees, with some being quite passionate about it.

I don't hate home schooling, just 90% of the people who choose to do it. I once read a story about a family who "home" schooled their kids while sailing around the world for 2 years - now THAT would be an education. People who do it for the purpose of keeping their kids' minds closed and free from having to think critically about different points of view - not so much.

 

[Dirty]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I don't hate home schooling, just 90% of the people who choose to do it. I once read a story about a family who "home" schooled their kids while sailing around the world for 2 years - now THAT would be an education. People who do it for the purpose of keeping their kids' minds closed and free from having to think critically about different points of view - not so much.

Those kids take classes from my work!

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

I don't hate home schooling, just 90% of the people who choose to do it. I once read a story about a family who "home" schooled their kids while sailing around the world for 2 years - now THAT would be an education. People who do it for the purpose of keeping their kids' minds closed and free from having to think critically about different points of view - not so much.

Yup, that's why home-schooled kids do so well on standardized tests, in college, etc. Because they have closed minds and can't think critically. There are of course examples where someone abused the system, but the vast majority of home schooled kids get a better education than they'd get in the public schools. I was talking to someone in education recently and they said that really in public schools, there's maybe 2-3 hours of teaching going on and the rest is busy work and filler. So, even if you can home school and only have classes 4-5 hours a day, you're way ahead. Plus of course the personalized attention in home schooling is eons beyond being one of 30 kids competing for one teacher's attention.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Yup, that's why home-schooled kids do so well on standardized tests, in college, etc. Because they have closed minds and can't think critically. There are of course examples where someone abused the system, but the vast majority of home schooled kids get a better education than they'd get in the public schools. I was talking to someone in education recently and they said that really in public schools, there's maybe 2-3 hours of teaching going on and the rest is busy work and filler. So, even if you can home school and only have classes 4-5 hours a day, you're way ahead. Plus of course the personalized attention in home schooling is eons beyond being one of 30 kids competing for one teacher's attention.

My point had nothing whatsoever to do with academic achievement - in fact, that's pretty much the one area where I *wouldn't* expect home schooled kids' development to suffer. I'm also confident that there's a good amount of self-selection bias going on - low income single parents don't home school, so their kids' drag the public school averages down.

You don't have to convince me of the inefficiency of the public school system, however - I was so bored in high school I could barely stand it. My senior year, I missed 33/90 days of school for excused absences (school trips, etc) during the second semester alone and still got straight As (including 5 AP classes).

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

My point had nothing whatsoever to do with academic achievement - that's pretty much the one area where I *wouldn't* expect home schooled kids' development to suffer. I'm also confident that there's a good amount of self-selection bias going on - low income single parents don't home school, so their kids scores all drag the public school averages down.

Correct.

There are two big knocks on home schooling -- kids don't learn how to socialize with other kids, and parents' intellectual blind spots are reproduced in the next generation. Many home school parents actually recognize the former problem and enroll their kids in after school activities like sports at the schools, and that certainly helps. Also, kids from home school families seem to inevitably also belong to church groups, scouting, etc, so they do learn to interact.

The latter problem is the big one, particularly since it is the express purpose of a lot of home schooling -- it is a methodical attempt to "protect" (i.e., censor) their children from "negative" (i.e., unorthodox) influences. But I would say in the event what happens is probably much like what happened in, say, Catholic schools. For the incurious children it doesn't matter. The curious children will find their own way, and probably enjoy the "forbidden" knowledge ten times as much. Censorship may breed 95% docile and controlled sheep, but those 5% who rebel -- look out, they're on a mission!

Also, the girls get wild. Granted, some of them will fall for John Cale, but it's just a phase, and the SCA needs new blood.

Truth may be one of those things that it helps if you have to overcome something to get to it. What you work for is that much more precious.

So, basically, I think home schooling helps subpar and average kids, and it probably doesn't hurt talented kids -- it may even give them a context for rebellion against the parochialism of their upbringing.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

Correct.

There are two big knocks on home schooling -- kids don't learn how to socialize with other kids, and parents' intellectual blind spots are reproduced in the next generation. Many home school parents actually recognize the former problem and enroll their kids in after school activities like sports at the schools, and that certainly helps. Also, kids from home school families seem to inevitably also belong to church groups, scouting, etc, so they do learn to interact.

The latter problem is the big one, particularly since it is the express purpose of a lot of home schooling -- it is a methodical attempt to "protect" (i.e., censor) their children from "negative" (i.e., unorthodox) influences. But I would say in the event what happens is probably much like what happened in, say, Catholic schools. For the incurious children it doesn't matter. The curious children will find their own way, and probably enjoy the "forbidden" knowledge ten times as much. Censorship may breed 95% docile and controlled sheep, but those 5% who rebel -- look out, they're on a mission!

Also, the girls get wild. Granted, some of them will fall for John Cale, but it's just a phase, and the SCA needs new blood.

Truth may be one of those things that it helps if you have to overcome something to get to it. What you work for is that much more precious.

So, basically, I think home schooling helps subpar and average kids, and it probably doesn't hurt talented kids -- it may even give them a context for rebellion against the parochialism of their upbringing.

What is missing here is a comparison to what you get in the public schools, which is the primary reason people go the home school route. It's certainly not for everyone, it's a ton of work, and an education at home is certainly not perfect. But, done well, it blows away what a kid would get in your typical public school.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Most Serious [x] Problem We Face Today

What is missing here is a comparison to what you get in the public schools, which is the primary reason people go the home school route. It's certainly not for everyone, it's a ton of work, and an education at home is certainly not perfect. But, done well, it blows away what a kid would get in your typical public school.

But not every school and not every kid.

Home schooling can't give you the expertise of a dozen different teachers and the perspective of dozens of smart and diverse classmates. (It also can't get you other kinds of experience unless your sister is very accommodating). If you are going to compare ideal home schooling then compare it against ideal public education. There is no home schooling in the world that is remotely as good as the public education I was lucky enough to get.

Moral: be born middle class, but in a rich school district. That way you don't get sent to Choate, but you can piggyback off the schools the tools who do send their kids to Choate still have to pay for.