The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

[Rover]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Chuck, the problem in that case is that some programs have squandered the talent given to them... Namely bu, Maine, and UNH. You know this to be true. BU won a national title in that stretch but I have to imagine to a man they believe they ought to be doing better.

If it weren't for that stuff we wouldn't be having this conversation. Those schools have had the parts, they haven't had the culture or coaching to make it work recently. I'd love to see what Bazin could do with that level of talent.

This I believe is the core of the problem. Bad coaching. Parker was a great coach 30 years ago but by the time he was done he'd lost his fastball, curveball, changeup, and just about everything else. That killed a program that was churning out NHL level players even after their 2009 championship (Nieto, Coyle, etc).

Dick Umile is a fossil and a dinosaur and the school needs to step up and force his retirement. That team will stay stuck in neutral as long as his corpse continues to rot behind the bench.

Whitehead was a terrible coach who only had success with another coach's players. Unbelievable that he was allowed to stick around for so long.

So, if you let bad coaching fester, the team and the league will suffer. The good coaches were all at the rest of the programs (Lowell, the Mac) hence their success. Thankfully BU has made a long overdue change, and I expect them to return to the top. Maine has too but I'm unsure of their prospects unless they start paying players again. UNH? Sorry Chuck but this year is going to be every year until you get rid of that guy.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

I think if Q wanted to jump, they would have applied. And if they had applied, I can't see HE picking UConn over Q.

On the former comment, I have no idea whether Q applied but I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted to establish themselves first.

On the latter, though, we strongly disagree. HE is moving (has moved?) to a "Big Ten / Pac Ten" model of regional state universities: Maine, UNH, UMass, UML, UVM. UConn fits that model perfectly. BU is essentially UMass-Storrow Drive. BC is the gorilla that can sit wherever it wants to. Providence and NU are legacies that can hold their own, and Merrimack is... well, Merrimack. They are probably destined for AH when Q does move to HE and RIT or Holy Cross backfill the ECAC slot.

 

[NCAA watcher]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Dick Umile is a fossil and a dinosaur and the school needs to step up and force his retirement. That team will stay stuck in neutral as long as his corpse continues to rot behind the bench.

UNH? Sorry Chuck but this year is going to be every year until you get rid of that guy.

Overheard at the AD Department:

I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god
And on my mother's grave
That I would employ you to the end of time
I swore I would employ you to the end of time

So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
'Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
So I can end my time with you

 

[Split-N]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

...I don't remember hearing if any ECAC schools applied to take that opening...

AFAIK, there was no application process. UConn has been a done deal for a long time. Just a matter of when they would commit to investing the necessary resources. They made that commitment, the magic wand was waved, and they were in.

As someone else on this thread noted, HEA is following a "big school -- deep pockets" model a la the B1G. Whether or not The Mack is able to keep up (I hope so) over the long haul is a fair question.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

So, if you let bad coaching fester, the team and the league will suffer. The good coaches were all at the rest of the programs (Lowell, the Mac) hence their success. Thankfully BU has made a long overdue change, and I expect them to return to the top. Maine has too but I'm unsure of their prospects unless they start paying players again. UNH? Sorry Chuck but this year is going to be every year until you get rid of that guy.

I think the overriding point in your post is basically correct. The overall quality of coaching in HE has deteriorated. And the programs who do enjoy the better coaching have risen in the vacuum created in the aftermath of the old "Big Four". Whether those programs will take advantage of their suddenly-found footholes in the upper tier of HE remains to be seen, and I guess that's the overriding point in my original post ... none of these other schools has really cracked it nationally, although Lowell arguably is on the verge of making the next step. It will be interesting to see if Coach Bazin can maintain the momentum, or will fall back a little (see Merrimack) while they wait to reload. Based on what I've seen ... I'm bullish on Lowell being a consistent factor near the top of HE for the forseeable future.

As far as your thoughts on UNH, I can't argue too much as I've held some of those beliefs for some time myself. I figure Coach Umile perhaps views the next two incoming classes as the key to his long-term future - and I have no reason to believe anyone else holds that key other than Coach himself - if it pans out, he gets to set out on another quest for the elusive white whale, and maybe he's behind the UNH bench until age 70+? IF it craps out, then he retires two years from now, and we all finally find out what's behind Door #3 in Durham. Which is only slightly less compelling than finding out what's behind Door #3 in Chestnut Hill a few years from now.

JMHO.

 

[Chuck Murray]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Overheard at the AD Department:

I couldn't take it any longer
Lord I was crazed
And when the feeling came upon me
Like a tidal wave
I started swearing to my god
And on my mother's grave
That I would employ you to the end of time
I swore I would employ you to the end of time

So now I'm praying for the end of time
To hurry up and arrive
'Cause if I gotta spend another minute with you
I don't think that I can really survive
I'll never break my promise or forget my vow
But God only knows what I can do right now
I'm praying for the end of time
So I can end my time with you

Bravo, 'Watcher!!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Its a matter of who you go after, I think Michigan and BC are more susceptible. Minnesota has the built in pride factor which probably keeps people in and also means you don't have to fight too much with MJ.

The thing with hockey players... if they think they're on the fast track then MJ is hard to resist. I know Lowell has lost one or two on occasion. In each case I don't think much happened to them... in one case a player got injured right away and got jettisoned. Nonetheless, if you're confident and high on yourself you're going to put your stock higher than you should. Insurance is not something the young consider.

Its been discussed here before. But hockey in this state just has its own culture. And that culture doesn't see anything beyond its borders. MJ just doesn't exist. You couple that with the fact that U MN, being both B1G and the only D1 school, dominates the general landscape and frankly rivals the biggest pro teams here. Big time college athletics is the norm.

You couple those factors together and kids from the state are far less likely to go MJ than kids from other places...where they've had to travel and otherwise get creative to play serious hockey.

 

[CLS]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Its been discussed here before. But hockey in this state just has its own culture. And that culture doesn't see anything beyond its borders. MJ just doesn't exist. You couple that with the fact that U MN, being both B1G and the only D1 school, dominates the general landscape and frankly rivals the biggest pro teams here. Big time college athletics is the norm.

You couple those factors together and kids from the state are far less likely to go MJ than kids from other places...where they've had to travel and otherwise get creative to play serious hockey.

And in hockey, big time high school hockey is the norm also. An important part of the Minnesota culture is that the kids don't have to make a choice between high level hockey and the "perks" -- the adulation, the big man on campus, the community hero, the thousands of people in the stands. Kids in most other hockey cultures make a choice between playing high level hockey in front of scouts, friends, and family or being the big fish in the small pond.

So not only has MJ and club teams hurt the colleges directly; they have also hurt the sources that feed them. I've noticed it in watching New England prep school games over the last decade; there aren't any more teams like the Brian Boyle St. Sebastian's team that had something like five or six D1 players on it.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

I've noticed it in watching New England prep school games over the last decade; there aren't any more teams like the Brian Boyle St. Sebastian's team that had something like five or six D1 players on it.

This year Edina public high school had Malmquist, Bellows, Fidler, Wait, Nanne, and Zulsdorf (and there are several kids that are just too young to get offers).

 

[Kepler]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

And in hockey, big time high school hockey is the norm also. An important part of the Minnesota culture is that the kids don't have to make a choice between high level hockey and the "perks" -- the adulation, the big man on campus, the community hero, the thousands of people in the stands.

So, essentially, trim.

 

[Split-N]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

...So not only has MJ and club teams hurt the colleges directly; they have also hurt the sources that feed them. I've noticed it in watching New England prep school games over the last decade; there aren't any more teams like the Brian Boyle St. Sebastian's team that had something like five or six D1 players on it.

It's not just Canadian MJ that's the problem, it's Junior hockey in general. More specifically, the lower-tier and "pseudo" junior programs have essentially emasculated Massachusetts high school hockey over the past decade or so, and they're also eating away at the U16 youth programs. It's the hockey equivalent of eating your young.

Once upon a time, you could have a serious argument about whether Massachusetts or Minnesota had the better high school hockey system. No more. Massachusetts hockey in general, and Massachusetts high school hockey in particular, is a shell of what it once was.

 

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

It's not just Canadian MJ that's the problem, it's Junior hockey in general. More specifically, the lower-tier and "pseudo" junior programs have essentially emasculated Massachusetts high school hockey over the past decade or so, and they're also eating away at the U16 youth programs. It's the hockey equivalent of eating your young.

Once upon a time, you could have a serious argument about whether Massachusetts or Minnesota had the better high school hockey system. No more. Massachusetts hockey in general, and Massachusetts high school hockey in particular, is a shell of what it once was.

The same thing can be said about Michigan I think. While never at the level of Minnesota, a generation ago Michigan high school hockey was light years ahead of where it resides now. The decline is for the same reasons Mass hockey has declined.

 

[el_norte]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

UConn - so many possibilities, but this is a program that can't even manage to be a factor in their last league(s), so we'll just designate the Huskies as Newbie and leave it at that.

Northern Indiana State - why are you guys even here? Does your school president have dyslexia or is he/she just plain illiterate? This is Hockey East, not Hockey Midwest. It was bad enough on the "blowhard subway alums" for the rest of us with BC ... so now the league has doubled-down to get an even more annoying fanbase?? I'll give you guys this much ... your team somehow sucked all of the potential joy out of watching BC lose to a #8 seed in the HE Tourney. I've given them loads of crap in the past about being a wanna-be football school, and likewise you are a wanna-be hockey school. Go back where you came from. You guys are just Incredibly Frickin' Annoying.


I think UConn eventually gets absorbed by the B1G and I would HOPE they would come as a package with Notre Dame. The B1G is in full blitzing (crashing the net?) mode on the northeast region right now and they having been getting highly critized for taking Rutgers over UConn ever since UConn proved how much they dominate the basketball world and Rutgers continues to dominate the headlines with negative PR. The B1G wants more NYC/northeast presence and on a much smaller scale wants more hockey for BTN programming, UConn helps with both. And of corse the B1G has wanted, still wants and will always want Notre Dame so I hope they can work that out and end all of this expansion nonsense by adding UConn and Notre Dame as 15 and 16 (full members and 7/8 for hockey). This wouldn't happen anytime this decade so hopefully UConn and Notre Dame can have some success and improve their programs in the HE to add some prestige when they join the B1G.

 

[Sean Pickett]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

BU is essentially UMass-Storrow Drive.

BU is far from a state school: Cornell, on the other hand, is a state school.

Sean

 

[kdiff77]

BU is far from a state school: Cornell, on the other hand, is a state school.

Sean

Zing!

 

[mookie1995]

BU is far from a state school: Cornell, on the other hand, is a state school.

Sean

 

[LynahFan]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

You know what makes me happy? Puppies. Well, puppies, and this thread. But mostly puppies.

 

[UncleRay]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Maine & UNH are perpetually meh middle of the conference, maybe make the tournament but not really challenge for the FF.

You might want to check the history of that.

The argument is of late it's been BC and the 7 dwarfs.

"Perpetually," your statement about UMaine's success in FF's is incorrect. They have done quite well. "Of late," there is no argument - they haven't been making the tourney. I was merely responding to your statement, not the gist of the thread in general, which is why I quoted your statement.

 

[mookie1995]

"Perpetually," your statement about UMaine's success in FF's is incorrect. They have done quite well. "Of late," there is no argument - they haven't been making the tourney. I was merely responding to your statement, not the gist of the thread in general, which is why I quoted your statement.

true.

when umo was allowed to cheat, they did quite well

call a spade a spade!

 

[UncleRay]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

They were never allowed. They just got caught.

Personal opinion, with no facts to back it up: I believe that virtually every program "cheats" in ticky-tack fashions like UMaine got a wrist-slap for. UMaine got caught, most programs don't. And, no, it doesn't make it right. It's kinda like driving at over .08 - it is my opinion that the absolute vast majority of people who avail themselves of adult beverages have, at some point, driven while over the current .08 BAC threshold. Most people don't get caught, but it doesn't make them better people than those that do get caught.