The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

[mnstate0fhockey]

I'm being sensitive? I was joking, but when I read his comment my reaction was, "None of these people care".

que sera, sera.

Would it have been different if he had used a recent Tonka team in his example instead of Edina?

Didn'f notice the in your previous post until just now. My bad on that. I do think it's an interesting discussion though, and more people are probably interested than you might think. CHL vs NCAA effects us all.

 

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Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Frankly I think its quite relevant. The original point was that the St. Sebastian type of dominant program doesn't exist any more. I pointed out it still does. That has significant implications for causes of program decline and whether its addressable.

But please continue...

Sorry, but it is irrelevant.

This is what you said:

Its been discussed here before. But hockey in this state just has its own culture. And that culture doesn't see anything beyond its borders. MJ just doesn't exist. You couple that with the fact that U MN, being both B1G and the only D1 school, dominates the general landscape and frankly rivals the biggest pro teams here. Big time college athletics is the norm.

You couple those factors together and kids from the state are far less likely to go MJ than kids from other places...where they've had to travel and otherwise get creative to play serious hockey.

This is my response, which said that that culture doesn’t exist in New England.

And in hockey, big time high school hockey is the norm also. An important part of the Minnesota culture is that the kids don't have to make a choice between high level hockey and the "perks" -- the adulation, the big man on campus, the community hero, the thousands of people in the stands. Kids in most other hockey cultures make a choice between playing high level hockey in front of scouts, friends, and family or being the big fish in the small pond.

So not only has MJ and club teams hurt the colleges directly; they have also hurt the sources that feed them. I've noticed it in watching New England prep school games over the last decade; there aren't any more teams like the Brian Boyle St. Sebastian's team that had something like five or six D1 players on it.

I think it was clear that I was talking regions that don’t have the Minnesota culture. One of the results is that the really strong New England Prep School teams don’t exist any more. Reciting a D1 commitment list from a Minnesota high school isn’t relevant to New England prep schools.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

I think it was clear that I was talking regions that don’t have the Minnesota culture. One of the results is that the really strong New England Prep School teams don’t exist any more. Reciting a D1 commitment list from a Minnesota high school isn’t relevant to New England prep schools.

Your statement 'not only has MJ and club teams hurt college directly; they...' is clear and unqualified. You didn't qualify it when you expounded on the point by explaining that your viewing sample was New England prep schools. You may have felt that a previous paragraph tied in somehow...but you made no reference. I qualified your statement for you.

If you can't see the relevance...I can't help you.

 

[Slap Shot]

Frankly I think its quite relevant.

We'll agree to disagree.

 

[mnstate0fhockey]

We'll agree to disagree.

He didn't bring the UMN and MN into the discussion.

Nobody really does, except BC, which is what makes BC so weird. All of the other factory schools have been in relative decline against the rest of the NC$$ over the last decade plus. Either the bottom is catching up in talent, or the five star guys who used to go to Minny or Michigan are now getting siphoned into the CHL, or both.

He responded that the UMN and MN don't face the same level of challenges with the CHL and recruiting as elsewhere. It's really tough to argue he is wrong about that. The UMN is impacted less than probably any school in that regard.

Not sure how much more relevant his comments can get to this particular discussion.

 

[Snively65]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

How did Minnesota hi-jack this thread?

 

[claver2010]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

tArrogance

 

[BBDiehard14]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Hockey East goalies rule in the NHL: true or false?

One of them will likely hoist Lord Stanley's Cup tonight

 

[Snively65]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Lot of Hockey East players in game tonight; gotta love it!

 

[Snively65]

Lot of Hockey East players in game tonight; gotta love it!

Chris Kreider, BC!

And, now Boyle!

 

[Snively65]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Hurray for Jonathan Quick, Hockey East rules!

 

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Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

He didn't bring the UMN and MN into the discussion.

...or the five star guys who used to go to Minny or Michigan are now getting siphoned into the CHL, or both.

He responded that the UMN and MN don't face the same level of challenges with the CHL and recruiting as elsewhere. It's really tough to argue he is wrong about that. The UMN is impacted less than probably any school in that regard.

Not sure how much more relevant his comments can get to this particular discussion.

Yes, it would help if Kepler would explain his use of "Minny" as an example. I agree with msoh and 5mm that Minnesota as a region and the University of Minnesota as a school are less affected by club teams and MJ teams than other areas of the country and the schools that recruit there. And on the tangential discussion of "superteams" I can't comment on 5mm's specific example, but I certainly think that it's more likely for a superteam to exist in Minnesota than in the fractured east.

To me, the Minnesota discussion was irrelevant because I agree with msoh and 5mm; the factors that were mentioned as affecting the non-BC teams of HE don't apply there.

 

[jcarter7669]

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

Re: The Fallacy of HE "Supremacy" - BC, The Seven Dwarfs and The Least of the East

UMass Lowell - the new "fair haired boy" and "new kid on the block" at the top of HE the last two seasons, the Riverhawks and their fans are hard to dislike.

I stopped reading after this, your credibility is shot. Hard to dislike a Lowell Fan? That's like say it's hard for a 15 year old boy to stare at boobs, just pure and utter nonsense.

 

[Snively65]

I stopped reading after this, your credibility is shot. Hard to dislike a Lowell Fan? That's like say it's hard for a 15 year old boy to stare at boobs, just pure and utter nonsense.

I know a couple of UML fans who are ok.