The definitive tournament speculation thread

[Josh Carey]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

In the real world (versus the NCAA fantasy world, where the want-to-be's, and corrupt rule), duress is not considered a valid reason for submitting to anything. Trying to make the best of a situation, which IMO, the legitimate coaches struggle to do, out of a sincere love of the sport and appreciation of the student athletes is the only explanation for having what little of DIII hockey remains. Lobbying for logic and common sense, among those whose only concern is “what’s in it for me” is likely an effort in futility.

Sounds like you'd fit in great with your interpretation of the NCAA... illogical and talking to them is an effort in futility. Projecting much?

 

[norm1909]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Sounds like you'd fit in great with your interpretation of the NCAA... illogical and talking to them is an effort in futility. Projecting much?

So you still can't think of any objective reasons for Plattsburgh getting a bye and St Norbert a play-in? When you represent 360,000 student athletes, sacrificing good sportsmanship, and doing the right thing, in an effort to save a potential extra $10,000 is wrong (yes flights might cost more than $10,000, but the bus isn't free either). I'm open to legitimate reasons, simply saying "I was doing my job" is no excuse, show me on the record evidence that Bruce - or anyone on the selection committee is doing anything to rectify the blatant wrong. Otherwise, I'm tired of hearing the same old, "they did what they were instructed", I'm wont tire of sticking up for what is right.

There has to be a realistic way to fund good sportsmanship. If just the Division III schools put $400 each into a flight fund, there would be about $30,000 to assist in flight cost should they become necessary; funds to replenish the fund should be a priority use of any revenue from the championship. Other alternatives would be to seek fan support for a flight fund, people are willing to support good causes, such as the $7,000,000 recently donated to Lake Forest, I have seen no objective effort to right the wrong, only pointing to the subjective rules that attempt, but do not justify the ends.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

In the real world (versus the NCAA fantasy world, where the want-to-be's, and corrupt rule), duress is not considered a valid reason for submitting to anything.

So your opinion of the committee members is that they are "want-to-be's and corrupt"? We all know how much you despise anything related to Delventhal, but this blanket statement of yours is just ridiculous.

If you believe that, I'd suggest your time would be better spent lobbying the membership to elect other people to the committee (assumming you can find others willing to run).

 

[aerogroup2]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Any Westerner who has watched the NCAA over the years could see this bracket coming. Unless forced into it, the NCAA simply did not want to pay to send two teams to faraway Lake Placid. So they came up with whatever plan they needed to ensure that occurred. Fairness never even came into consideration. In hindsight, UST's win at GAC really didn't matter. The NCAA simply would have paired CSS and GAC (at one arena or the other, probably at GAC) and shipped Adrian to SNC Anyway. Both those teams could have gone undefeated and this still would have happened.

The East better enjoy this one while they can. With next year's tournament set for Minneapolis, the moneychangers at the NCAA will simply reverse direction and do everything in their power to ensure, at the very least, a 2-2 split. The West has understood the economics of the NCAA and D-III hockey for a long time. While they may not like it, most coaches have learned to deal with it.

Interesting....but, with the D3 women, the NCAA will fly 3 teams WEST for this year's tourney. http://www.pressrepublican.com/0300_sports/local_story_067235551.html

 

[Matthew Webb]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Interesting....but, with the D3 women, the NCAA will fly 3 teams WEST for this year's tourney. http://www.pressrepublican.com/0300_sports/local_story_067235551.html

True, but prior to this when was the last time the DIII women's finals were out here?

 

[OZFEST]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

So you still can't think of any objective reasons for Plattsburgh getting a bye and St Norbert a play-in? When you represent 360,000 student athletes, sacrificing good sportsmanship, and doing the right thing, in an effort to save a potential extra $10,000 is wrong (yes flights might cost more than $10,000, but the bus isn't free either). I'm open to legitimate reasons, simply saying "I was doing my job" is no excuse, show me on the record evidence that Bruce - or anyone on the selection committee is doing anything to rectify the blatant wrong. Otherwise, I'm tired of hearing the same old, "they did what they were instructed", I'm wont tire of sticking up for what is right.

There has to be a realistic way to fund good sportsmanship. If just the Division III schools put $400 each into a flight fund, there would be about $30,000 to assist in flight cost should they become necessary; funds to replenish the fund should be a priority use of any revenue from the championship. Other alternatives would be to seek fan support for a flight fund, people are willing to support good causes, such as the $7,000,000 recently donated to Lake Forest, I have seen no objective effort to right the wrong, only pointing to the subjective rules that attempt, but do not justify the ends.

Good thoughts here, bravo Norm.

 

[Toe Blake's Brother]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

So you still can't think of any objective reasons for Plattsburgh getting a bye and St Norbert a play-in? When you represent 360,000 student athletes, sacrificing good sportsmanship, and doing the right thing, in an effort to save a potential extra $10,000 is wrong (yes flights might cost more than $10,000, but the bus isn't free either). I'm open to legitimate reasons, simply saying "I was doing my job" is no excuse, show me on the record evidence that Bruce - or anyone on the selection committee is doing anything to rectify the blatant wrong. Otherwise, I'm tired of hearing the same old, "they did what they were instructed", I'm wont tire of sticking up for what is right.

There has to be a realistic way to fund good sportsmanship. If just the Division III schools put $400 each into a flight fund, there would be about $30,000 to assist in flight cost should they become necessary; funds to replenish the fund should be a priority use of any revenue from the championship. Other alternatives would be to seek fan support for a flight fund, people are willing to support good causes, such as the $7,000,000 recently donated to Lake Forest, I have seen no objective effort to right the wrong, only pointing to the subjective rules that attempt, but do not justify the ends.

Norm:

As an ardent SNC fan, I want to thank you for your efforts on the "good fight" regarding the bye selection of your team at Plattsburgh over SNC. You absolutely "get it" when you understand that the selection and seedings should be about sportsmanship, not money and who is closest to Lake Placid to fill seats for the NCAA. You are not getting any objective responses to Plattsburgh's bye because there is not any! Unfortunately, you are also beating a dead horse and will not get anywhere as the NCAA is not listening.

 

[chico53]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Interesting....but, with the D3 women, the NCAA will fly 3 teams WEST for this year's tourney. http://www.pressrepublican.com/0300_sports/local_story_067235551.html

Two simple answers here. They are right inside the article for all to read:

"Typically when there's a 5-2 split, the semifinals and final are held in the East and hosted by the top seed, which has a bye in the first round.

But in 2007 the committee instituted a policy that the championship must be be held in the West at least once every four years. Plus, Amherst has a small arena, and Houle said the Lord Jeffs wouldn't have been able to host the semis and final anyway."

There is half your answer right there. If they hadn't done this year, they would have had to do it next year. Might as well get it done when you know you can fly to a major airport in the west.

It has been fairly obvious for some time the final would be somewhere in that area. With the committee putting the tournament at the site of the River Falls/Gustavus winner, the NCAA can buy the plane tickets today. Both arenas are within easy reach of the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport.

As much as the East doesn't like it, you do have to come West occasionally.

 

[NUProf]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Two simple answers here. They are right inside the article for all to read:

"Typically when there's a 5-2 split, the semifinals and final are held in the East and hosted by the top seed, which has a bye in the first round.

But in 2007 the committee instituted a policy that the championship must be be held in the West at least once every four years. Plus, Amherst has a small arena, and Houle said the Lord Jeffs wouldn't have been able to host the semis and final anyway."

There is half your answer right there. If they hadn't done this year, they would have had to do it next year. Might as well get it done when you know you can fly to a major airport in the west.

It has been fairly obvious for some time the final would be somewhere in that area. With the committee putting the tournament at the site of the River Falls/Gustavus winner, the NCAA can buy the plane tickets today. Both arenas are within easy reach of the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport.

As much as the East doesn't like it, you do have to come West occasionally.

And next year the men will be in that same area.

 

[PrezdeJohnson09]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Two simple answers here. They are right inside the article for all to read:

"Typically when there's a 5-2 split, the semifinals and final are held in the East and hosted by the top seed, which has a bye in the first round.

But in 2007 the committee instituted a policy that the championship must be be held in the West at least once every four years. Plus, Amherst has a small arena, and Houle said the Lord Jeffs wouldn't have been able to host the semis and final anyway."

There is half your answer right there. If they hadn't done this year, they would have had to do it next year. Might as well get it done when you know you can fly to a major airport in the west.

It has been fairly obvious for some time the final would be somewhere in that area. With the committee putting the tournament at the site of the River Falls/Gustavus winner, the NCAA can buy the plane tickets today. Both arenas are within easy reach of the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport.

As much as the East doesn't like it, you do have to come West occasionally.

People that paid attention and didn't believe the conspiracy theorists all year knew that the tournament was going west no matter what.

It wouldn't have mattered if Plattsburgh was the top seed in the East and had a perfect season. As long as a western host could meet the hosting criteria, it was going west this year because of the one in every four rule.

 

[chico53]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

And next year the men will be in that same area.

True. The difference is I suspect the howling will be longer (and a helluva lot louder) if the NCAA breaks down and does a bracket that would allow two western teams to advance to the semifinals. Considering their track record, the odds on this occurring cannot be a lot better than 50-50 (at best). One can dream, though.

 

[jerrynu26]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

True. The difference is I suspect the howling will be longer (and a helluva lot louder) if the NCAA breaks down and does a bracket that would allow two western teams to advance to the semifinals. Considering their track record, the odds on this occurring cannot be a lot better than 50-50 (at best). One can dream, though.

But if only 1 western team is there, it will be difficult to make the arguement that it is because of the flights...

 

[NUProf]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

True. The difference is I suspect the howling will be longer (and a helluva lot louder) if the NCAA breaks down and does a bracket that would allow two western teams to advance to the semifinals. Considering their track record, the odds on this occurring cannot be a lot better than 50-50 (at best). One can dream, though.

Last year the bracket allowed two team from the midWest to go to Lake Placid, by giving the West 4 byes and the East 1. The East howled minimally. This year the East teams had better resume`s and it made more sense to give byes to all of the top ranked teams except for SNC than to give them to SNC, 3 teams at the bottom of the seedings and to one of Norwich/Oswego. The committee seemed not to consider the idea of sending Adrian to Elmira, which would have enabled the top 5 teams to all get byes. That's the only puzzle that I had about the bracket once the teams were selected.

 

[CARDS_rule_the_Burgh]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Last year the bracket allowed two team from the midWest to go to Lake Placid, by giving the West 4 byes and the East 1. The East howled minimally. This year the East teams had better resume`s and it made more sense to give byes to all of the top ranked teams except for SNC than to give them to SNC, 3 teams at the bottom of the seedings and to one of Norwich/Oswego. The committee seemed not to consider the idea of sending Adrian to Elmira, which would have enabled the top 5 teams to all get byes. That's the only puzzle that I had about the bracket once the teams were selected.

Last year, that allocation of the byes made statistical sense. Is was justifiable to place Superior, Scholastica, even Gustavus and Stout, ahead of the east number 2. Part of that was the obvious dominance of the East exhibited by Platty, and the fact that (as I recall), the top 3 through most of the season consisted of Plattsburgh and 2 West teams.

This year, this allocation made little sense. There is, in a 7-4 split with no (or very limited) cross-region travel, 1 way to get 2 west teams in, and 1 way to get 1 west team in. Last year, we saw the former. This year, we see the latter. It's all in which of these two formats appear most justifiable in a particular year.

Does it suck for SNC? Yes.
Does it suck for the West in general? Probably.
Is it totally ridiculous and unnecessary given the performances by the regions this year in conjunction with pre-existing (and well-known) NCAA restrictions? Absolutely not.


I'm pretty sure that's what you were saying anyway, but I just wanted to throw my $0.02 in.

 

[Scott Bridges]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Last year the bracket allowed two team from the midWest to go to Lake Placid, by giving the West 4 byes and the East 1. The East howled minimally. This year the East teams had better resume`s and it made more sense to give byes to all of the top ranked teams except for SNC than to give them to SNC, 3 teams at the bottom of the seedings and to one of Norwich/Oswego. The committee seemed not to consider the idea of sending Adrian to Elmira, which would have enabled the top 5 teams to all get byes. That's the only puzzle that I had about the bracket once the teams were selected.

From what I've heard, the committee was open to sending adrian to elmira. The NCAA, however, was not.

Considering that sending adrian to SNC or to Elmira has the same # of guaranteed flights and the same # of potential flights, I'm somewhat perplexed why the NCAA wouldn't consider it.

 

[NUProf]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

From what I've heard, the committee was open to sending adrian to elmira. The NCAA, however, was not.

Considering that sending adrian to SNC or to Elmira has the same # of guaranteed flights and the same # of potential flights, I'm somewhat perplexed why the NCAA wouldn't consider it.

That makes no sense whatsoever, but hey, it's the NCAA. Must be that flights from DTW to SYR cost more than flights from DTW to MSP, because that the only travel difference I see for potential extra flights, unless of course Adrian won twice, and then there would be a third flight from DTW to ALB or BTV.

 

[Matt Rennell]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

True, but prior to this when was the last time the DIII women's finals were out here?

The last time the #1 team in the country was from the west.

 

[Matthew Webb]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

The last time the #1 team in the country was from the west.

Which was when?

 

[Matt Rennell]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Which was when?

Never.

 

[norm1909]

Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

So your opinion of the committee members is that they are "want-to-be's and corrupt"? We all know how much you despise anything related to Delventhal, but this blanket statement of yours is just ridiculous.

If you believe that, I'd suggest your time would be better spent lobbying the membership to elect other people to the committee (assumming you can find others willing to run).

Blanket? Note my comment referred to those who "rule", those who lead are responsible for those below them. I firmly believe that MOST of the NCAA committee members and the vast majority of the coaches out there are sincere and do what they do out of a love of the sport. That said, since I can't think of anything that the NCAA Division III committees have done to positively advance the sport. If their job is to continue with blatant unsportsmanship, such as awarding Plattsburgh a bye and having St. Norbert participate in a play-in, because their rules allow for geographic proximity to trump performance, then they are want-to-be leaders or too corrupt to do the right thing. If they are otherwise competent but to busy with their day job to handle the needs of their position, they need to step down, as competency includes knowing ones limits.