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The definitive tournament speculation thread
- Thread starter Josh Carey
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Toe Blake's Brother
I never scored a goal backchecking!
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
It would 12-4 with the 2 paly in games out West. Automatic qualifiers would be Norwich, Plattsburgh, Oswego, Elmira, and Middlebury regardless of records. Throw in the rest within a 200 mile radius of Lake Placid after consultation with the LP Chamber of Commerce and LP Dining and Hotel Association.
I think they should play a 16-team tournament just like D-1. Then we could argue whether it will be a 13-3 or 12-4 split.
It would 12-4 with the 2 paly in games out West. Automatic qualifiers would be Norwich, Plattsburgh, Oswego, Elmira, and Middlebury regardless of records. Throw in the rest within a 200 mile radius of Lake Placid after consultation with the LP Chamber of Commerce and LP Dining and Hotel Association.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
You sure the West would still get four teams? I'm not. Have to find a spot for Manhattanville.
It would 12-4 with the 2 paly in games out West. Automatic qualifiers would be Norwich, Plattsburgh, Oswego, Elmira, and Middlebury regardless of records. Throw in the rest within a 200 mile radius of Lake Placid after consultation with the LP Chamber of Commerce and LP Dining and Hotel Association.
You sure the West would still get four teams? I'm not. Have to find a spot for Manhattanville.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
It is over, done, and finis. We now have a bit over 50 hours to go to puck drop @ the Domes and 1 hour more for action in the Cheese region. I can't wait.
Memo to the SNC Athletic Dept. -- please increase your bandwidth from the CCC. A lot of people will be watching (except those tuned to Channel 45 in the Twin Cities).
It was Marie Anoinette who said that. For that remark (and other affronts to French sensibilities) she lost her head.
It is over, done, and finis. We now have a bit over 50 hours to go to puck drop @ the Domes and 1 hour more for action in the Cheese region. I can't wait.
Memo to the SNC Athletic Dept. -- please increase your bandwidth from the CCC. A lot of people will be watching (except those tuned to Channel 45 in the Twin Cities).
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
It is there now. Includes a link to the fund raising site GoMiddTV.
It is there now. Includes a link to the fund raising site GoMiddTV.
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Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
With all due respect, Chris, I don't see how you can possibly claim that the ECAC-W is "doubly hurt" by the strength of the programs in the league, when we are only one year removed from a season in which a full 50% (three of six) of the league's members were selected for the NCAA field. Yes, I understand that the presence of three or four strong teams in such a small league will result in the teams beating up on one another in conference play, dragging down the win totals somewhat. The key is how the ECAC-W fares in nonconference play, and this year the top four did not pick up many significant non-league wins, which consequently dragged down the SOS for the league as a whole. Many observers have commented that the ECAC-W was down a bit this year, with no real standout teams.
The NCHA (and NESCAC to some extent) faces a similar dilemma almost every year with its overall strength at the top. The only real conclusion you can make in such situation is that sometimes having several good teams hurts a league, while sometimes it helps. It all depends on how they fare in nonconference play.
With all due respect, Chris, I don't see how you can possibly claim that the ECAC-W is "doubly hurt" by the strength of the programs in the league, when we are only one year removed from a season in which a full 50% (three of six) of the league's members were selected for the NCAA field. Yes, I understand that the presence of three or four strong teams in such a small league will result in the teams beating up on one another in conference play, dragging down the win totals somewhat. The key is how the ECAC-W fares in nonconference play, and this year the top four did not pick up many significant non-league wins, which consequently dragged down the SOS for the league as a whole. Many observers have commented that the ECAC-W was down a bit this year, with no real standout teams.
The NCHA (and NESCAC to some extent) faces a similar dilemma almost every year with its overall strength at the top. The only real conclusion you can make in such situation is that sometimes having several good teams hurts a league, while sometimes it helps. It all depends on how they fare in nonconference play.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
Last year's results have no bearing on this year's selection process
Last year's results have no bearing on this year's selection process
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
Mon mauvais. But I stand by the rest of it.
Mon mauvais. But I stand by the rest of it.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
In no way did I imply they did. I merely provided a recent counter-example to Chris' claims that the strength of the teams in the league hurts the ECAC-West in the selection process, and that members have little control over SOS. If the top four teams are truly that strong, their non-conference results should bear that out (thereby boosting SOS for conference games in the process), and this year they did not.
In no way did I imply they did. I merely provided a recent counter-example to Chris' claims that the strength of the teams in the league hurts the ECAC-West in the selection process, and that members have little control over SOS. If the top four teams are truly that strong, their non-conference results should bear that out (thereby boosting SOS for conference games in the process), and this year they did not.
CARDS_rule_the_Burgh
Nate LePage, Siena '13
Re: The Obvious, yet often ignored "Pool Recipe"
Re: The Obvious, yet often ignored "Pool Recipe"
My perspective: A 1-bid league is better than a 0-bid league
Re: The Obvious, yet often ignored "Pool Recipe"
My perspective: A 1-bid league is better than a 0-bid league
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
(Emphasis mine). In the case of Manhattanville, for whatever reason, their NC schedule was weak, and the rest of league was down this year, so those two factors depressed their OWP.
I, for one, would prefer it if the committee said at the beginning, we will follow the data blindly, no nuances, just go by the old PWR and be done with it. At least there's not any question of bias (real or imagined).
(Emphasis mine). In the case of Manhattanville, for whatever reason, their NC schedule was weak, and the rest of league was down this year, so those two factors depressed their OWP.
I, for one, would prefer it if the committee said at the beginning, we will follow the data blindly, no nuances, just go by the old PWR and be done with it. At least there's not any question of bias (real or imagined).
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Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
I just want to know why the ECAC does not have that authority. Three Conferences belong to the ECAC. It is their strongest conference of the 3 that really gets it stuck to them. Sometimes a system is flawed enough that it needs a complete overhaul. Some restrictions from the NCAA need to be temporarily lifted for the overhaul that needs to be done. Let conferences re-align and give them their autobids immediately. As for the East-West thing, I think people need to stop and take a step back for a minute. I'm gonna play a game of lets pretend for a minute.....
-Lets pretend they sent Adrian to Elmira, gave SNC their bye, and took it away from Plattsburgh. Now we have Westerners complaining that its an 8-3 split and there is still bias.
-Lets pretend that they gave the 4 western teams their bye, then you really have beef with Oswego because they would lose out and were clearly better than 3 of 4 Western bids this year, with SNC being the only possible argument. And also, westerners will still complain about the 7-4 split...There is a theme to that...
Maybe what we should do is have an East Tournament, and a West Tournament, and then have the 2 Champions meet in Toledo or Ft Wayne for a 3 game series.
-That is sarcasm, ludicrous
I just want to know why the ECAC does not have that authority. Three Conferences belong to the ECAC. It is their strongest conference of the 3 that really gets it stuck to them. Sometimes a system is flawed enough that it needs a complete overhaul. Some restrictions from the NCAA need to be temporarily lifted for the overhaul that needs to be done. Let conferences re-align and give them their autobids immediately. As for the East-West thing, I think people need to stop and take a step back for a minute. I'm gonna play a game of lets pretend for a minute.....
-Lets pretend they sent Adrian to Elmira, gave SNC their bye, and took it away from Plattsburgh. Now we have Westerners complaining that its an 8-3 split and there is still bias.
-Lets pretend that they gave the 4 western teams their bye, then you really have beef with Oswego because they would lose out and were clearly better than 3 of 4 Western bids this year, with SNC being the only possible argument. And also, westerners will still complain about the 7-4 split...There is a theme to that...
Maybe what we should do is have an East Tournament, and a West Tournament, and then have the 2 Champions meet in Toledo or Ft Wayne for a 3 game series.
-That is sarcasm, ludicrous
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
I don't think any westerners would have complained about that. It's a 7-4 split, and a chance to see two western teams at Placid.
I don't think any westerners would have complained about that. It's a 7-4 split, and a chance to see two western teams at Placid.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
Alignment, therefore, occurs entirely at the whim of schools already part of the conferences. And as long as they remain solidly Pool A, there's no real benefit to East or Northeast teams to add mandatory travel west of Saratoga to their schedules.
I asked a similar question earlier in the thread, and while it wasn't addressed, I think Chris implied what I was guessing. Namely, the impression one receives of the ECAC due to its size is disproportionate to the power it actually wields over member schools. It's an umbrella conference that exists to facilitate organization of teams where a school's (generally far stronger) primary conference affiliation (SUNYAC, Liberty League, etc.) fails to sponsor a given sport. The East and Northeast are happily AQ-ed conferences, and the ECAC lacks the coercive powers one would normally associate with a conference - implications on other sports for balking at realignment in one, for example. An obvious recent manifestation of this is the MASCAC: once Westfield State brought the conference's numbers to AQ level, the ECAC had nothing to offer (or hold over) its members to keep them from breaking off.
Alignment, therefore, occurs entirely at the whim of schools already part of the conferences. And as long as they remain solidly Pool A, there's no real benefit to East or Northeast teams to add mandatory travel west of Saratoga to their schedules.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
Also St. Norbert would have gotten the bye they probably deserved to get this year, too.
The Western complaints here had nothing to do with the East-West split, but that SNC didn't get a bye.
Sending Adrian east would have probably made for a fairer tourney, with Norwich, Oswego, SNC, Middlebury and one other east team getting a bye (prob Plattsburgh).
Your QF could have been
Gust-St Thom @ SNC
Adrian-Elmira @ Oswego
Curry-Bowdoin @ Norwich
Plattsburgh-Middlebury
Or something along those lines.
Also St. Norbert would have gotten the bye they probably deserved to get this year, too.
The Western complaints here had nothing to do with the East-West split, but that SNC didn't get a bye.
Sending Adrian east would have probably made for a fairer tourney, with Norwich, Oswego, SNC, Middlebury and one other east team getting a bye (prob Plattsburgh).
Your QF could have been
Gust-St Thom @ SNC
Adrian-Elmira @ Oswego
Curry-Bowdoin @ Norwich
Plattsburgh-Middlebury
Or something along those lines.
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Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
Right, so then why did you mention that by sending Adrian out east, you'd have an 8-3 split?
Right, so then why did you mention that by sending Adrian out east, you'd have an 8-3 split?
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
Chris,
I understand and agree with your comment about using Pairwise to make the process transparent. But, am having trouble understanding how the "doubly hurt" comment makes sense. In three of the previous four years, the ECAC-W has sent 3 teams to the tournament, one in the other year. Getting 1/2 of their teams into the tournament in any year is an amazing statistic. I imagine you have to go back a lot of years to find where any league had half of their teams selected. In fact, it probably has never happened.
The ECAC-W did not perform well as a league this year and, I think, did not deserve more than one team. If you look at the pairwise, Williams beats both Elmira and Manhattanville and you could also make a case for Amherst, so if it wasn't for Pool B eligibility, maybe the ECAC-W would have had no representatives.
Chris,
I understand and agree with your comment about using Pairwise to make the process transparent. But, am having trouble understanding how the "doubly hurt" comment makes sense. In three of the previous four years, the ECAC-W has sent 3 teams to the tournament, one in the other year. Getting 1/2 of their teams into the tournament in any year is an amazing statistic. I imagine you have to go back a lot of years to find where any league had half of their teams selected. In fact, it probably has never happened.
The ECAC-W did not perform well as a league this year and, I think, did not deserve more than one team. If you look at the pairwise, Williams beats both Elmira and Manhattanville and you could also make a case for Amherst, so if it wasn't for Pool B eligibility, maybe the ECAC-W would have had no representatives.
norm1909
Larry Normandin
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
In the real world (versus the NCAA fantasy world, where the want-to-be's, and corrupt rule), duress is not considered a valid reason for submitting to anything. Trying to make the best of a situation, which IMO, the legitimate coaches struggle to do, out of a sincere love of the sport and appreciation of the student athletes is the only explanation for having what little of DIII hockey remains. Lobbying for logic and common sense, among those whose only concern is “what’s in it for me” is likely an effort in futility.
In the real world (versus the NCAA fantasy world, where the want-to-be's, and corrupt rule), duress is not considered a valid reason for submitting to anything. Trying to make the best of a situation, which IMO, the legitimate coaches struggle to do, out of a sincere love of the sport and appreciation of the student athletes is the only explanation for having what little of DIII hockey remains. Lobbying for logic and common sense, among those whose only concern is “what’s in it for me” is likely an effort in futility.
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread
The only problem here is that a team that barely made their conference tournament (UVM) has been very much on the tournament bubble all year long. At 15-12-7, they are currently ranked #17 in the Pairwise rankings. They took the eighth and final conference playoff spot (out of ten teams) by one point. I'm not sure going strictly by the Pairwise is the answer either.
The only problem here is that a team that barely made their conference tournament (UVM) has been very much on the tournament bubble all year long. At 15-12-7, they are currently ranked #17 in the Pairwise rankings. They took the eighth and final conference playoff spot (out of ten teams) by one point. I'm not sure going strictly by the Pairwise is the answer either.
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