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The definitive tournament speculation thread

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Re: The Obvious, yet often ignored "Pool Recipe"

Re: The Obvious, yet often ignored "Pool Recipe"

Was that the way it was back when RIT was in the ECAC West?

Couldn't they just become a 1 bid league because they beat up on each other too much with another game added versus each team?

See: NCHA. Increased insular schedules decrease the number of Pool C opportunities by making it so you're beating up on each other, not other teams. You're increasing the number of games where top teams are forced to have a SOS below .500, in an era when SOS is heavily considered by the selection committee. In the ECAC-West, where no one is guaranteed a bid, this has been their greatest strength and could be their greatest weakness.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

So for the sake of argument let's say St. Norbert should have gotten a bye?
So who from the East should not have? Norwich? Oswego? Middlebury? P-Burgh?
Someone was going to get the short end of the stick here .
Sorry!

You said it! Middlebury or Plattsburgh!!! Oh no, we can't let that happen as we need one or the other to fill seats!!
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

All in all though, The brackets would be easier to do if there was a few more D3 squads out there and we could have a 12 team field. There's quite a few D3 schools out there in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa that could stand to add hockey as well. Adding a 12th team would mean that only 4 teams would get byes, and then you would have less stacking things up for a region.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

All in all though, The brackets would be easier to do if there was a few more D3 squads out there and we could have a 12 team field. There's quite a few D3 schools out there in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and Iowa that could stand to add hockey as well. Adding a 12th team would mean that only 4 teams would get byes, and then you would have less stacking things up for a region.

Agree. But at the same time, the west as a whole had more of a down year then ever. I can't remember in recent years the west only getting 2 wins over the east in 11 games. That includes their #1 seed getting shut out against a MASCAC team.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

SNC fans should be happy about getting to see their team play an extra game....

Regardless, they would still be playing Adrian... except they do so on Wednesday instead of Saturday.

Same questions arise should Adrian win, do they continue on to Minn? or go back to Michigan and fly to Min?
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

SNC fans should be happy about getting to see their team play an extra game....

Regardless, they would still be playing Adrian... except they do so on Wednesday instead of Saturday.

Same questions arise should Adrian win, do they continue on to Minn? or go back to Michigan and fly to Min?

.....you are getting way ahead of yourself.
 
Re: If money matters ....

Re: If money matters ....

Or they're ranked higher than Curry, the other eastern play-in team.

There is no conspiracy.

I must agree with Josh, I don't see any example of a conspiracy, as in a secret, or surreptitious plan, rather I see a blatant example of the NCAA, as I've said previously, putting bias and a relatively insignificant amount of money above sportsmanship. The selection criterion does explicitly state "geographic proximity takes precedence over seeding", which translates into, fairness to the fans and student athletes is less important to us money mongers than saving a few dollars. Also, to ensure that none of those with little man syndrome don't get their fix, they did make sure to add, "input is provided by regional advisory committees for consideration by the NCAA Division III Men’s Ice Hockey Committee."

The NCAA identifies sufficient "Primary and Secondary Criteria" which provide enough objective measures to solidly justify a selection bracket, resorting to unsportsmanlike activity (introduction of secretive, biased/unidentified additional input) in the spirit of being penny wise and dollar foolish, is wrong.

BTW, my team is in via an at-large berth, so I have no reason to feel slighted in that respect, but as a true fan of fair sportsmanship, I do feel obligated to state the obvious, unsportsmanlike activity of at least some on the committee who try to put appeasement above righteousness.

“Flights will be kept to a minimum.”, regardless of the criteria – it is a once a year tournament, they need to do what is right.
 
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Re: If money matters ....

Re: If money matters ....

I don't know if it was already covered, but why wasn't Manhattanville in the tourney? They did when their postseason tourney. Just wondering.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Same questions arise should Adrian win, do they continue on to Minn? or go back to Michigan and fly to Min?

Neumann had this question last year when they traveled to Elmira, then back to southern PA, then up to Plattsburgh in the span of a couple of days. They did just that thing, and as somebody who has spent some time traveling with a hockey team, allow me to dispel the notion they would ever fly or drive straight from a current destination.

The bus company is almost assuredly booked round trip and has to get their bus back to a station near the originating campus. Likewise, paying a driver for additional time (which would be required just getting the team to meals/the airport) isn't cheap.

Likewise, staying in place would require roughly 40 hotel rooms booked total of the span of two days, at the university's expense. Since the NCAA likely has some regulation about the flight being at an airport near the host institution, I would be amazed if Adrian didn't return home after a win.

I must agree with Josh, I don't see any example of a conspiracy, as in a secret, or surreptitious plan, rather I see a blatant example of the NCAA, as I've said previously, putting bias and a relatively insignificant amount of money above sportsmanship.

Easy to say when it's not your money.

The NCAA identifies sufficient "Primary and Secondary Criteria" which provide enough objective measures to solidly justify a selection bracket, resorting to unsportsmanlike activity (introduction of secretive, biased/unidentified additional input) in the spirit of being penny wise and dollar foolish, is wrong.

I'm willing to hear explanations on how Matt Rennell and I, who, as much of a joke about my lack of life it may be, have been the two people most engaged in looking at how this thing might shake out, essentially agreed on this bracket before it was announced. I quoted Matt's bracket with the correct structure and noted Elmira might be in and in the same post disagreed (without pointing to it) that OSU would jump NU as the east #1 seed. I understand the process blows, but your post suggests "secretive, biased/unidentified additional input" plays a significant role. If it's so secretive or unidentified, then how could two different knowledgeable people agree on this outcome beforehand?

People choosing to not understand the process and then getting outraged when the results are finalized is just silly.

Now, anyone wanting to say the process sucks after understanding the process (not just because their team got screwed) has a more valid complaint. But my question to them would be: have you identified the number you're calling at the NCAA tomorrow to lodge a complaint?
 
Re: If money matters ....

Re: If money matters ....

I don't know if it was already covered, but why wasn't Manhattanville in the tourney? They did when their postseason tourney. Just wondering.

There's two ways to look at this.

A) M'ville are the ECAC West tournament Champions ...and they got screwed.

or....if you are drinking the NCAA kool-aid

B) It has nothing to do with winning a championship and everything to do with scheduling ..........so Elmira deserved it more.
 
Re: If money matters ....

Re: If money matters ....

There's two ways to look at this.

A) M'ville are the ECAC West tournament Champions ...and they got screwed.

or....if you are drinking the NCAA kool-aid

B) It has nothing to do with winning a championship and everything to do with scheduling ..........so Elmira deserved it more.

I'll take column A. (I hope I don't get a nasty text or email from Prez.) It's kind of like if Witchita State won the MVC Tourney and told them. Sorry, you still aren't going because Northern Iowa had a better record.
 
Re: If money matters ....

Re: If money matters ....

I'll take column A. (I hope I don't get a nasty text or email from Prez.) It's kind of like if Witchita State won the MVC Tourney and told them. Sorry, you still aren't going because Northern Iowa had a better record.

Poor analogy - to make a valid comparison, the Missouri Valley would have to shed half its teams and lose its automatic bid to the NCAA field. The reality is that the ECAC West tourney is equivalent to two (or three) additional regular season games for the champion. The ECAC West teams know this is the dilemma they face every year, and they need to take care of business by winning throughout the season. Not saying that I don't think M'ville is deserving of a bid ahead of Elmira, but the NCAA selection criteria are known to all teams in advance.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

Why don't they just go to a 16 game tourney and forget about the byes and play-in games? It would be much more straightforward.

It wouldn't stop the speculation, complaints and general brouhaha following every selection of course (anymore than expanding the NCAA D1 hoops tourney to 64 did), but the further down the rankings you go in selecting teams for the tourney, the harder it is to justify a complain that you didn't get in, and getting screwed in the seeding when everyone plays the same number of games isn't as bad as getting screwed and having to play an extra game.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

First of all, well said, Josh. That pretty much hits the nail on the head.

As for Manhattanville, they knew the ECAC West didn't have an auto-bid (making the Wichita State analogy just plain wrong) when the season started. Despite Elmira's collapse, their entire resume was better than Manhattanville's. Since Elmira isn't playing Adrian in the first round (and can't play them in the QF round, you can't say that "geographic proximity" got Elmira in over Manhattanville either. Plain and simple, Manhattanvile's schedule was not as good as Elmira's. In the March 2 Regional Rankings, the NCAA ranked Elmira 4 spots higher than Manhattanville. I doubt that one game could have reversed that big a spread.

Actually, the "tradition" of finding a way to take the ECAC West Champion is more of a conspiracy than the team being left out this year.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

For people asking process questions, I've tried to address them in the "Definitive tournament selection thread" which I just started. Things like why Manhattanville are out and why St. Norbert has an opening round game and even what you can do about it are all over there. I recommend checking it out if you have such questions.

Edit: what a crappy post for #500.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

...Easy to say when it's not your money.

The NCAA Division III is the largest division - in terms of student athletes - the total cost is insignificant - pennies per student athlete - and yes, pennies add up, but this is a once a year national tournament. What they did is the equivalent of saying "despite the fact that the puck crossed the goal line with 1 second remaining, allowing the goal would result in a loss for the team with the better geographic proximity, so it is being disallowed".

...I'm willing to hear explanations on how Matt Rennell and I, who, as much of a joke about my lack of life it may be, have been the two people most engaged in looking at how this thing might shake out, essentially agreed on this bracket before it was announced...

The past history of the $election Committee made it easy to predict 'how this thing would shake out'. I'm willing to hear objective explanations as to why Plattsburgh's at large bid earns them a bye and St Norbert gets a play-in.

...People choosing to not understand the process and then getting outraged when the results are finalized is just silly.

People claiming to support true sportsmanship and not being outraged at an injustice is just hypocritical.

...Now, anyone wanting to say the process sucks after understanding the process (not just because their team got screwed) has a more valid complaint. But my question to them would be: have you identified the number you're calling at the NCAA tomorrow to lodge a complaint?

We all know how far you get beating a dead horse.
 
Re: If money matters ....

Re: If money matters ....

There's two ways to look at this.

A) M'ville are the ECAC West tournament Champions ...and they got screwed.

or....if you are drinking the NCAA kool-aid

B) It has nothing to do with winning a championship and everything to do with scheduling ..........so Elmira deserved it more.


I also will take column A.

On Saturday night it was a conference championship. The implication was the winner was in and the loser was out. I'm confident that coaches and players in the locker room approached the game that way, certainly it was clear to the fans - as evidenced by Elmira posters on this board.

Manhattanville rose to the occasion and won it on the road in a "championship" game. To my eyes, and I suspect to the eyes of most impartial observers Manhattanville was the better team.

The committee is given a lot of latitude and I suspect there is a lot more "brokering" that goes on than Josh and Matt seem to think. If it's all simple math, why does it take so long to come to a consensus.
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

The NCAA Division III is the largest division - in terms of student athletes - the total cost is insignificant - pennies per student athlete - and yes, pennies add up, but this is a once a year national tournament. What they did is the equivalent of saying "despite the fact that the puck crossed the goal line with 1 second remaining, allowing the goal would result in a loss for the team with the better geographic proximity, so it is being disallowed".



The past history of the $election Committee made it easy to predict 'how this thing would shake out'. I'm willing to hear objective explanations as to why Plattsburgh's at large bid earns them a bye and St Norbert gets a play-in.



People claiming to support true sportsmanship and not being outraged at an injustice is just hypocritical.



We all know how far you get beating a dead horse.

Clearly some people don't want an explanation - just to complain...
 
Re: The definitive tournament speculation thread

1st time in 26 years that ECAC West champ hasn't went to the tournament.

The NCAA had it all set up on Saturday night winner moves on to NCAA's. It should have been settled on the ice Saturday and it was. Mville took care of business and got screwed.
 
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