The Abortion Debate. Again.

[unofan]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

I really think this question will be moot in 50-100years with overpopulation and we'll institute 1 child rule and other forms of birthcontrol ala China.

And you'd be wrong, since the world's population is already leveling out (expected to peak at 9.5 billion, give or take) and the developed world will be losing population within 30 years, if it isn't already. The U.S. is only growing at this point because of immigration.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

I am 40 and have been married 16 years. My wife and I both waited to have sex until we were married. We dated for 4 years before we were enganged and were engaged 2 years before we were married.

As far as your 2nd paragraph goes, I agree with you that not everyone's goal is the same as mine. In my world, if I wasn't married, I'd be a 40 year old virgin, but that would be due to my moral values and not because I want to avoid impregnating a woman to avoid her having to get an abortion.

Your celibacy thought provokes this thought in my head: Are you implying that being celibate somehow makes your life less fullfilled? I'm just curious. I would like to comment on that, but if I don't get back to work....

Yes, there are millions of single people who have responsible sex every day, and that's fine and good for you. We're not on the same page value-wise, but that's fine. I'm not out to covert anyone, I just want to point out there is this option out there and it's foolproof (avoiding unwanted pregnancy).

Awesome post.

 

[ScottM]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

The U.S. is only growing at this point because of immigration.

Same for much of western Europe. I'd add Japan, but they generally are more xenophobic about immigration than even the rednecks in this country. Immigration will be the life's blood for many industrialized nations in the future, like it or not.

 

[BoomGoestheDynamite]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Same for much of western Europe. I'd add Japan, but they generally are more xenophobic about immigration than even the rednecks in this country. Immigration will be the life's blood for many industrialized nations in the future, like it or not.

Even our big immigration contributor (for better or worse), Mexico, is seeing a plummeting birth rate. They'll hit replacement level fertility rates (2.1 women per child) in 20 years if not sooner. They're population will continue to grow because of simple momentum, but most of the world outside of South Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa will start leveling off relatively soon.

The population bomb is, for the most part, a myth.

 

[duper]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

It seems pretty simplistic to just say that if sex occured within marriage then this would be a non-issue. I don't think this is all about morality altho a good portion could be argued as such. Arguing about whether sex should or shouldn't have occured is a moot point. If a woman is at the point of deciding about whether abortion is her choice or not pregnancy has occured.

There are enough instances where pregnancy occurs despite birth control in bad situations. I have seen pregnancy in a virginal woman (the addage that sperm can swim far is true altho I must admit I have seen it only once). There are situations where the woman is at physical risk from her partner because she is pregnant. There are situations where pregnancy imperils the woman either physically or psychologically if she continues it. There are instances where the fetus is known not to be viable even though the pregnancy is continuing. All this can occur within marriage or out of it. Some of these situations may not be morally right but they are real.

Whatever morality you ascribe to these situations do not go away. Our current system does not have a failproof answer to taking care of either the woman or the child if there are no choices. In a perfect world we would have answers but in our current world we do not.

I have no idea whether it is right to have an abortion. In my experiences (you may have different ones) the woman making the choice does so after a great deal of thought and it is the least bad choice. I could be lucky in my patient population but the stereotype of a woman just having an abortion as birth control is pretty unusual. I think I have encountered it maybe 2-3 times in 20+ years.

Maybe instead of arguing whether it is right to have access to abortion we should be working on it's prevention- education regarding how pregnancy can occur and how to prevent it (and that no method is failproof), support if adoption is considered (this for some reason is totally out of favor), prevention of domestic violence and protection from it if it occurs. Education from an early age to break the cycle of acceptance of early coitarchy...to name a few. Look at the 'stupid' Europeans who have significantly less problem with this. They must be doing something right.

Awfully early for a rant but there it is.....

I am 40 and have been married 16 years. My wife and I both waited to have sex until we were married. We dated for 4 years before we were enganged and were engaged 2 years before we were married.

As far as your 2nd paragraph goes, I agree with you that not everyone's goal is the same as mine. In my world, if I wasn't married, I'd be a 40 year old virgin, but that would be due to my moral values and not because I want to avoid impregnating a woman to avoid her having to get an abortion.

Your celibacy thought provokes this thought in my head: Are you implying that being celibate somehow makes your life less fullfilled? I'm just curious. I would like to comment on that, but if I don't get back to work....

Yes, there are millions of single people who have responsible sex every day, and that's fine and good for you. We're not on the same page value-wise, but that's fine. I'm not out to covert anyone, I just want to point out there is this option out there and it's foolproof (avoiding unwanted pregnancy).

Well I'll be snookered. Here we are in an abortion thread, and two really solid, thoughtful posts in a row. Will miracles never cease?

...the world's population is already leveling out (expected to peak at 9.5 billion, give or take) and the developed world will be losing population within 30 years, if it isn't already...

Same for much of western Europe.

The population bomb is, for the most part, a myth.

Wow. I hope these statements prove accurate.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Now we're on population growth (or lack thereof).

Question - have the great human migrations been spurred on by crowded populations? If so, will the human race stagnate if we do not migrate? Will intellectual growth be flat if we consume = what is made? Will not scarce resources stimulate explorations of new sources for resources or different resources altogether???

I am one for not putting all of humanity on one planet. I believe that with sufficient population pressure, mankind will be forced to look elsewhere to the Moon, Mars and eventually the rest of the celestial neighborhood.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Well I'll be snookered. Here we are in an abortion thread, and two really solid, thoughtful posts in a row. Will miracles never cease?......

Mistakes happen

I am curious for those who would totally ban abortion- what would you do with the consequences of not having it available? Not a sarcastic question. In the mainstream media they show zealots ranting about murder but not really what the plan would be if they were sucessful. I am sure there are folks that have thought this thru but they don't get coverage.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

I am 40 and have been married 16 years. My wife and I both waited to have sex until we were married. We dated for 4 years before we were enganged and were engaged 2 years before we were married.

As far as your 2nd paragraph goes, I agree with you that not everyone's goal is the same as mine. In my world, if I wasn't married, I'd be a 40 year old virgin, but that would be due to my moral values and not because I want to avoid impregnating a woman to avoid her having to get an abortion.

Your celibacy thought provokes this thought in my head: Are you implying that being celibate somehow makes your life less fullfilled? I'm just curious. I would like to comment on that, but if I don't get back to work....

Yes, there are millions of single people who have responsible sex every day, and that's fine and good for you. We're not on the same page value-wise, but that's fine. I'm not out to covert anyone, I just want to point out there is this option out there and it's foolproof (avoiding unwanted pregnancy).

Great post. I think this shows just how much of a cultural shift there has been since the advent of readily available birth control that took one of the biggest deterrents away if morality didn't stop you. It continually amazes me (and doing what I do it so should not) the cavalier way people view sexual activity of all sorts.

Friends with benefits, blow jobs like shaking hands just baffle me. It is as natural as peeing or pooing but sex also makes you very vulnerable. I know plenty of people that would call me a prude yet I can't imagine entering into that vulnerability without the slightest thought.

Even if morality is not involved the risk of physical harm is still right in there. Risk of HPV transmission with sexual contact (touching included) 9/10 with one contact in women under 25 yrs old. >50% of all those with herpes have no idea they were exposed or have it. Most of my pts with chlamydia are asymptomatic. If I were out in the single world every sexual act would feel like bungee jumping!

 

[BassAle]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

They made this glowing fish in 2004... since we don't have glowing cats and dogs maybe it's harder to manipulate genes or not viable financially.

We have glowing mice here (they glow under a black light). They are transgenic mice (expensive) and are created by adding genes from jellyfish into the mice (I'm a software engineer so I don't know how the process works). Mice can express the gene everwhere, or certain tissues. The one I have seen expresses the gene in all tissue.

I was told one thing they can be used for is for studies like this: take a mouse that glows red and a tumor from a mouse that glows green, implant the green tumor in the red mouse and watch how the tumor grows and the host blood vessels interact. Things like that...

 

[BassAle]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Wait, so since we can make a cat reflect ultraviolet light, that's gonna help us cure genetic disease?

yes, it is an important tool.

http://jaxmice.jax.org/research/gfp_lacZ_intro.html

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

yes, it is an important tool.

http://jaxmice.jax.org/research/gfp_lacZ_intro.html

I would have went with:

It's only Nobel prize worthy.

But that's just me.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Great post. I think this shows just how much of a cultural shift there has been since the advent of readily available birth control that took one of the biggest deterrents away if morality didn't stop you. It continually amazes me (and doing what I do it so should not) the cavalier way people view sexual activity of all sorts.

Friends with benefits, blow jobs like shaking hands just baffle me. It is as natural as peeing or pooing but sex also makes you very vulnerable. I know plenty of people that would call me a prude yet I can't imagine entering into that vulnerability without the slightest thought.

Even if morality is not involved the risk of physical harm is still right in there. Risk of HPV transmission with sexual contact (touching included) 9/10 with one contact in women under 25 yrs old. >50% of all those with herpes have no idea they were exposed or have it. Most of my pts with chlamydia are asymptomatic. If I were out in the single world every sexual act would feel like bungee jumping!

the mister used to tell his daughter : be careful, you could get AIDS, you could get pregnant and you could get HURT!

 

[joecct]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Mistakes happen

I am curious for those who would totally ban abortion- what would you do with the consequences of not having it available? Not a sarcastic question. In the mainstream media they show zealots ranting about murder but not really what the plan would be if they were sucessful. I am sure there are folks that have thought this thru but they don't get coverage.

If the parent(s) do not want the child, and the state has said that you cannot abort the child, then the state MUST provide an alternative. To me, that means infant and foundling homes where the children are raised either by the state or by a nongovernment agency (we have St. Ann's Infant & Maternity Home down by me). Hopefully, the child is placed with a loving family via adoption or they are educated by the state or NGA through HS and then, frankly, I don't know.

You'll probably disagree with this, but read it anyway. Paul VI was spot on with some of the consequences.

 

[Carter]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

If the parent(s) do not want the child, and the state has said that you cannot abort the child, then the state MUST provide an alternative. To me, that means infant and foundling homes where the children are raised either by the state or by a nongovernment agency (we have St. Ann's Infant & Maternity Home down by me). Hopefully, the child is placed with a loving family via adoption or they are educated by the state or NGA through HS and then, frankly, I don't know.

If a young woman who doesn't want to continue a pregnancy is forced to, who's job is it to ensure that she practices good prenatal care? Do we incarcerate them to make sure those babies are healthy enough that the average couiple will want to adopt them? There are already thousands and thousands of unwanted children in orphanages and foster care in this country, many of them with health issues.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

If a young woman who doesn't want to continue a pregnancy is forced to, who's job is it to ensure that she practices good prenatal care? Do we incarcerate them to make sure those babies are healthy enough that the average couiple will want to adopt them? There are already thousands and thousands of unwanted children in orphanages and foster care in this country, many of them with health issues.

Carter

The state or some NGA. Here is what St. Ann's does.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

If the parent(s) do not want the child, and the state has said that you cannot abort the child, then the state MUST provide an alternative. To me, that means infant and foundling homes where the children are raised either by the state or by a nongovernment agency (we have St. Ann's Infant & Maternity Home down by me). Hopefully, the child is placed with a loving family via adoption or they are educated by the state or NGA through HS and then, frankly, I don't know.

You'll probably disagree with this, but read it anyway. Paul VI was spot on with some of the consequences.

This thing is taking forever to load- while I wait...

If a young woman who doesn't want to continue a pregnancy is forced to, who's job is it to ensure that she practices good prenatal care? Do we incarcerate them to make sure those babies are healthy enough that the average couiple will want to adopt them? There are already thousands and thousands of unwanted children in orphanages and foster care in this country, many of them with health issues.

Many of these programs are in place with very strict rules that expel women who are unable to comply with the rules. Our local program requires certain things and does end up kicking non-compliant women out for the protection of the other women. There are times where women are incarcerated until the birth occurs to protect the baby. This is with identified pregnancies.

Without abortion there are thousands of women who show up without prenatal care and deliver drug addicted babies, many who have multiple medical problems and psych problems from the exposure inutero. Many of these women chose abortion rather than sobriety or because by the time they are aware they are pregnant significant risk has occured to the fetus.

These children are extremely high maintainence and sometimes end up institutionalized despite the best efforts of very caring adoptive parents. If the choice is to remove adoption then there will need to be significant financial outlay to support these kids and to monitor/force women to have good prenatal care.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

If the parent(s) do not want the child, and the state has said that you cannot abort the child, then the state MUST provide an alternative. To me, that means infant and foundling homes where the children are raised either by the state or by a nongovernment agency (we have St. Ann's Infant & Maternity Home down by me). Hopefully, the child is placed with a loving family via adoption or they are educated by the state or NGA through HS and then, frankly, I don't know.

You'll probably disagree with this, but read it anyway. Paul VI was spot on with some of the consequences.

Some of the consequences are spot on but I find the 'logic' on which many of the precepts are based fascinatingly illogical. Esp where you can not confound the Natural process by a sure means because it is not the moral thing to do but it is OK to use Vatican roulette to count your way to non-conception (25% of all women ovulate 2 times a month). I respect that the Catholic belief is the Pope is infallable but for the life of me I cannot understand how a being can read the Cannon law and not see the absolute illogic of the way arguments are presented.

I do wonder what Jesus would say to this and how he would handle it.

 

[joecct]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

The Pope (and the Bishops in Council) are infallible but only in matters of faith and morals.

Until the 1930s, the Catholic Church was not alone in its opposition to contraceptives. In the Christian tradition, birth control had long been associated with promiscuity and adultery, and resolutely condemned. However, after the Anglican Church passed a resolution in favor of birth control at its 1930 Lambeth Conference, other Protestant denominations began to relax their prohibitions as well. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church held fast to its opposition.

This was picked off from here.

Then there is this quote from The Telegraph quoting the current Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams:

In his 1989 essay The Body’s Grace, Dr Williams argued that the Church’s acceptance of contraception meant that it acknowledged the validity of nonprocreative sex. This could be taken as a green light for gay sex.

Is birth control going away? Absolutely not - even between Catholic couples. But folks, whoopee should have more meaning than taking your morning constitutional. And can somebody PLEASE tell me why 12 year old girls are looking like Brittany Spears and (some, a small #) are sexually active and a (thankfully) smaller # are getting preggers? For Pete's sake, have we lost our sense of decency?

 

[BoomGoestheDynamite]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

The Pope (and the Bishops in Council) are infallible but only in matters of faith and morals.

This was picked off from here.

Then there is this quote from The Telegraph quoting the current Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams:


Is birth control going away? Absolutely not - even between Catholic couples. But folks, whoopee should have more meaning than taking your morning constitutional. And can somebody PLEASE tell me why 12 year old girls are looking like Brittany Spears and (some, a small #) are sexually active and a (thankfully) smaller # are getting preggers? For Pete's sake, have we lost our sense of decency?

I can't really say the idea that non-procreative sex and gay sex existing in our society is something I find horrifying.

As others have implied, most individuals I know in their late twenties do not bed hop from one person to the next. Theres a reason the "third date rule" exists in popular culture. The implication is that most people are at least in the dating or courting stage before they have sex.

If you feel the need to wait until marriage, none of my business. I just see nothing wrong with having a fulfilling sexual relationship with people you care about outside of marriage.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

The Pope (and the Bishops in Council) are infallible but only in matters of faith and morals.

This was picked off from here.

Then there is this quote from The Telegraph quoting the current Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams:


Is birth control going away? Absolutely not - even between Catholic couples. But folks, whoopee should have more meaning than taking your morning constitutional. And can somebody PLEASE tell me why 12 year old girls are looking like Brittany Spears and (some, a small #) are sexually active and a (thankfully) smaller # are getting preggers? For Pete's sake, have we lost our sense of decency?

I absolutely agree with the last statement you made. I don't think it is just sex but the entire society norm has become much more lax and self indulged. Instead of children being adults in training with the requisite rules they are "just children" that adults seem to indulge because they feel the kid needs to be happy all the time. You could list increased acceptblitiy of sex, binge drinking, obesity, lack of common courtesy/manners as things that have significantly changed because of this attitude. People before were judgemental about these and now they just shrug and say 'Oh well'.

I would love to see a study of 'permissiveness' in kids. Just how many times parents say no, there is an argument and the kid gets what they want anyway. Self denial and consideration of consequence for self (and others) is not in vogue around where I live. If you don't learn that is something to consider early on you don't consider it when you get to larger life decisions. end rant/

Having ranted on I would say that abortion is someting I rarely seen taken lightly and seems to be a real reality check to women who need to consider what to do. (There are some women who become pregnant by accident more than once and are shocked evey time but thankfully those aren't that common)