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The Abortion Debate. Again.

Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

joecct said:
Is there unsettling social argument here that women are becoming semen receptacles and not objects of love and affection? Are we "rediscovering" our primitive roots?
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This is the core of the argument against not abortion but sexuality itself -- it supposes that sexuality without a procreative mission is bestial, unloving and exploitative, and that sex without making babies is inherently the man taking advantage of the woman. It's based on a view of human nature that I think is flawed.

Many good people hold this opinion -- one of my coworker's kids just got married specifically because he and his wife just "couldn't wait anymore to have sex" (they're 20). It seems to be a statement that because the holder of this view can't imagine non-procreative sex in a loving relationship, it's impossible. That's too much like the atheist who says that because he doesn't believe in God, religious people must either be fooling themselves or insincere.

Sex certainly can be belittled, not when it's divorced from marriage and kids, but when it's divorced from affection and respect. The "loaded gun" of pregnancy risk did not encourage either of the latter feelings and so it's removal isn't the cause of the debasing of the currency.
 
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Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

joecct said:
Which begs the argument, when is it human?

If you pick time X, I'll pick X - 1 second. And I'll keep backing up until sperm -> egg. The point being is that we don't know for certain. I believe that life begins at conception. I believe will all certainty that when my wife and I lost a baby @ 8 weeks gestation, that that child is in heaven with his grandfather and all prior generations. To deny the personhood of that little embryo denies a part of my wife and me. If that little guy was nothing, than what am I? Her?
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That's your belief. You can't legislate morality and one set of beliefs. Medically, it's not viable. It's not a person.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

huskyfan said:
then what is it? broccoli? salamander?
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It's a fetus. And I don't mean that as an obnoxious comment. I think that a chicken egg is an egg until a chick hatches out of it. I also think that a human fetus is a human fetus until it is born.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

duper said:
It's a fetus. And I don't mean that as an obnoxious comment. I think that a chicken egg is an egg until a chick hatches out of it. I also think that a human fetus is a human fetus until it is born.
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Want to get started on what is euphamistically called "partial birth abortion"? If that is not a human because it is only 2/3 of the way out of the mother before he/she is killed, than may God have mercy on our collective souls, for what we are doing is abomination.

My grandson was born @ 7 months gestation -- legally in some parts, he could have been wiped out. So he was subhuman while in my daughter, but magically human after the C-section?
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

joecct said:
Want to get started on what is euphamistically called "partial birth abortion"? If that is not a human because it is only 2/3 of the way out of the mother before he/she is killed, than may God have mercy on our collective souls, for what we are doing is abomination.

My grandson was born @ 7 months gestation -- legally in some parts, he could have been wiped out. So he was subhuman while in my daughter, but magically human after the C-section?
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Name the states where your grandson could legally have been "wiped out" (your phrase) at 7 months.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Kepler said:
Sex certainly can be belittled, not when it's divorced from marriage and kids, but when it's divorced from affection and respect. The "loaded gun" of pregnancy risk did not encourage either of the latter feelings and so it's removal isn't the cause of the debasing of the currency.
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But do you deny the fact that there is a segment of the population who basically F like rabbits? There seems to be ample evidence (at least among pro sports) that all the women are for are to provide relief.

There is some evidence that the fear of knocking the girl up did dissuade some couples - but that was when having a out of wedlock baby was a stigmata. Nowadays who the heck knows.

I'm soon to be 54. I cannot understand why it is so important to "practice" before marriage, or that the vows taken at marriage seem to be taken so lightly. Guess I'm a fuddy duddy.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Nathan said:
That's your belief. You can't legislate morality and one set of beliefs. Medically, it's not viable. It's not a person.
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What was medically not viable twenty years ago is a common premie today and someone's healthy son or daughter tomorrow. So the state of the medical technology determines the morality?
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

joecct said:
But do you deny the fact that there is a segment of the population who basically F like rabbits? There seems to be ample evidence (at least among pro sports) that all the women are for are to provide relief.

There is some evidence that the fear of knocking the girl up did dissuade some couples - but that was when having a out of wedlock baby was a stigmata. Nowadays who the heck knows.

I'm soon to be 54. I cannot understand why it is so important to "practice" before marriage, or that the vows taken at marriage seem to be taken so lightly. Guess I'm a fuddy duddy.
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There has always been and will always be a segment of the population that
F like rabbits. It isnt like this a new thing.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

joecct said:
But do you deny the fact that there is a segment of the population who basically F like rabbits? There seems to be ample evidence (at least among pro sports) that all the women are for are to provide relief.

There is some evidence that the fear of knocking the girl up did dissuade some couples - but that was when having a out of wedlock baby was a stigmata. Nowadays who the heck knows.

I'm soon to be 54. I cannot understand why it is so important to "practice" before marriage, or that the vows taken at marriage seem to be taken so lightly. Guess I'm a fuddy duddy.
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Marriage vows should be respected 100%. Adultery isn't an issue of sexuality, it's an issue of untrustworthiness and meanness.

The segment of the population that F's like rabbits is called "adults with incompletely formed brains," and they range from about 16-25 for girls and 18-35 for boys. Nothing has ever stopped them from having sex. From the Mayflower to Jesus Camp young adults have always been little more than breeding machines. 10 million years of evolution will always explode through the Kleenex of social mores.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

unh_hockey said:
Field data would suggest its closer to 50% in some countries.

http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
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Meh. If no children are involved, I see no problems with two adults dissolving a relationship that has ceased to be loving or fulfilling or is otherwise dysfunctional.

Even when kids are involved, I'm not convinced divorce is usually negative. My parents got divorced and I'm quite happy they did (I was admittedly a teenager at the time). Staying together for the sake of the kids can lead to a very poisonous atmosphere.

Its tough to find any kind of positive that comes from Adultry. That really just shows a lack of self control or an inability to face tough choices.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

joecct said:
But do you deny the fact that there is a segment of the population who basically F like rabbits? There seems to be ample evidence (at least among pro sports) that all the women are for are to provide relief.

There is some evidence that the fear of knocking the girl up did dissuade some couples - but that was when having a out of wedlock baby was a stigmata. Nowadays who the heck knows.

I'm soon to be 54. I cannot understand why it is so important to "practice" before marriage, or that the vows taken at marriage seem to be taken so lightly. Guess I'm a fuddy duddy.
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The fear of pregnancy is real but certainly not as much of a stigma as it was when we were kids. When I was first practicing (NP) I set up for a pelvic when they were 14. In the 20 yrs since I started there is a lot more 'thought' (loosly put) than before. Before you never talked or thought about sex and if you planned you were a slut. If it was an accident it was somehow more forgivable. Now Sex is something folks seem to assume but kids are actually waiting a bit longer. (They are also giving blow jobs like the pros with as little thought.:eek: ) It is just not unacceptable to be sexually active without a relationship where I am. Even if the kid doesn't participate it is condoned in the peer set.

goldy_331 said:
What was medically not viable twenty years ago is a common premie today and someone's healthy son or daughter tomorrow. So the state of the medical technology determines the morality?
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Healthy is not necessarily true. The risks for premies for multiple and long term health problems is quite high as is medical intervention. There are a lucky few that come out healthy without issues but this is a labor intensive process with extensive follow up in many cases. Not arguing that some fetuses are viable then but they don't just pop out and live the life of a normal baby in most cases.

Kepler said:
Marriage vows should be respected 100%. Adultery isn't an issue of sexuality, it's an issue of untrustworthiness and meanness.

The segment of the population that F's like rabbits is called "adults with incompletely formed brains," and they range from about 16-25 for girls and 18-35 for boys. Nothing has ever stopped them from having sex. From the Mayflower to Jesus Camp young adults have always been little more than breeding machines. 10 million years of evolution will always explode through the Kleenex of social mores.
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Ha. I wouldn't put a limit on the rabbit factor. I give more lectures to pts in their 30s-40s who seem to think themselves exempt than to the teens who are sometimes pretty knowledgeable.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

Timothy A said:
What is it then, a potato? :confused:

Solution to 95% of abortions: Don't have sex until you are married.
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What if people don't want to get married...

Better yet, dont you think that people are just going get married so they can finally have sex?

Sorry that solution is not feasible in the modern day.
 
Re: The Abortion Debate. Again.

ScottM said:
Most people stop having sex after they're married, so I suppose this works. :rolleyes:
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But only with their spouse.

Abstinence works right up until it doesn't. A slightly more realistic and constructive approach is indicated.
 
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