The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Hmm. Will have to think about that, but spending in large part equals doing (just as the lack of the power to spend nullifies the power to do -- one problem with the Articles that the Constitution was created to rectify).

Yeah, but it's a necessary distinction. Congress has no general all-encompassing police power. Thus it cannot create a national drunk driving law. But it sure as hell can condition federal highway funds on a state having its own drunk driving law that just happens to comport with what Congress wanted to set as a national standard.

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the not so distant future, a few states decide to turn down some federal money, especially in education. The number of unfunded mandates that are attached to federal funds are enormous when it comes to schools. At some point an actuary's gonna find that accepting federal money is actually costing states more than they're getting.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the not so distant future, a few states decide to turn down some federal money, especially in education. The number of unfunded mandates that are attached to federal funds are enormous when it comes to schools. At some point an actuary's gonna find that accepting federal money is actually costing states more than they're getting.

I thought Utah was going to do this to protest what a joke NCLB was?

 

[Tundra]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I'm curious where pro-life person stand on Medicaid... since it's mostly spent on women and children health. Looks like 5million more people enrolled in Medicaid from 2008 to 2010.

http://dhhs.gov/asfr/ob/docbudget/2010budgetinbriefm.html

Medicaid outlays is expected to be $290 billion. This is a $27 billion (10.4 percent) increase over projected FY 2009 spending.

Total Medicaid outlays represented 14.8 percent of all United States health care spending in 2006.

Medicaid Breakdown:
26.2million children, 12.4million adults (mostly women), 8.9milion blind/disabled and 4.8million 65 and over. total 53.3 million

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Even your $250k number is possibly fair...although that will be maybe half for lower income families.

No, just more of that total would be subsidized for lower income families (medicaid + state health plans, school lunch programs, etc).

There just aren't that many criminals.

Oh really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_correctional_population_timeline.gif
Note: without abortion, that number would be *much* higher, given the fact that most abortions involve minorities (30% blacks, 25% hispanics) and that those groups are much more likely to be imprisoned (a fact made doubly worse by the fact they'd be born to a mother that does not want them). If we seriously want to reduce the abortion rate, not only do groups like the Catholic church have to put their money where their mouth is, but adoptive parents would also have to accept the idea of transracial adoption. Most adoptive parents are white, and most abortions are non-white. If this country wants to be serious about ending racial problems, this would be an interesting place to start.

Kepler - of course I'm politically engaged; I just choose to participate in a non-fill-in-the-blank-in-a-booth way. Even if I had the money to make a strong case to the powers-that-be to change things, I'd probably just use it to relocate to some tropical paradise and watch Rome burn from a distance. I believe we've reached the point of no return, and our problems are so severe that we either can't/won't solve them (due to lack of political will), or the solutions will be so painful/destructive that the quality of life / economic growth will stagnate for many years as we attempt to correct decades of criminal mismanagement. Remember that fiscal problem we had? Remember how the voters supposedly demanded fiscal restraint? What we got was a comical last minute tax deal / stimulus part three that added another trillion to the debt. When that agreement was reached, I wonder what the deficit commission thought. Why yes, we're going to take it seriously this time... we're going to have this panel, and we're going to take their recommendations seriously - for a couple weeks 'til we broker another financially ruinous deal.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

No, just more of that total would be subsidized for lower income families (medicaid + state health plans, school lunch programs, etc).

Oh really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_correctional_population_timeline.gif
Note: without abortion, that number would be *much* higher, given the fact that most abortions involve minorities (30% blacks, 25% hispanics) and that those groups are much more likely to be imprisoned (a fact made doubly worse by the fact they'd be born to a mother that does not want them).

The problem is that you've avoided the high value add of citizens...and those crossing out of poverty. The ripple effect of Wal Mart including taxes etc (again would not have happened under your scenario) represents $6 B in taxes and a circulation benefit likely in the $100B range...and one company alone would go far to paying for the entire prison system.

OK...so let's change your system so it works. You claim that suboptimal society over time is not caused by a lack of earnings (youre not tying this to earnings) but rather from a lack of having money.

So the with an improved plan instead we just take all excess money from the rich and give it to the poor...thereby distributing wealth equally. Insto presto, no more mansions...and by your logic, no more poverty and prisons. Afterall, this is not an earnings issue...but rather the fact that the poor don't have money. And we have a successful society...without the risk of killing the guy who discovers the cure for cancer.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The problem is that you've avoided the high value add of citizens...and those crossing out of poverty.

Except there's no middle class, and the poor stay poor due to racist oppressive white business owners - so sorry, those people are stuck being poor.

The ripple effect of Wal Mart including taxes etc (again would not have happened under your scenario) represents $6 B in taxes and a circulation benefit likely in the $100B range...and one company alone would go far to paying for the entire prison system.

Except prisons are overcrowded because states don't want to build them (and the standard NIMBY opposition to their construction, similar to nuclear plants).

You claim that suboptimal society over time is not caused by a lack of earnings (youre not tying this to earnings) but rather from a lack of having money.

It's suboptimal because the uneducated poor are reproducing at a much faster rate than the educated types that can afford kids (even when you account for all the abortions).

So the with an improved plan instead we just take all excess money from the rich and give it to the poor...thereby distributing wealth equally.

I'm advocating a kid transfer, not a wealth transfer. Transferring wealth does nothing to address the fact that many of these people are bad parents.

 

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Why? It all boils down to the more fundamental disagreement doesn't it? If the thing inside the mother is more than a ball of cells or whatver it's held to be these days, then why shouldn't everyone have a say in it?

Because they do not have the responsibilty for it.

That's what I'm talking about. We're clearly not going to agree on this, and I'm really not trying to convince you. Disagreements make the world go round or however the saying goes.

What I am saying though, and what you don't seem to understand, is that for people opposed to abortion it's not a woman's body. It's a real live person inside of her that's at issue.

Like I said, you won't agree with that and we can go back and forth forever and still not agree on it, just saying the debate is different from how you're framing it.

I can understand this opinion but unfortunately as others in the thread have stated society doe not want to do anything more than decree the birth should happen. Frequently the same people who howl about abortion are the ones who want to cut all the healthcare funding and education funding and 'leave it to the states who also don't fund.

Many of them are parasites until their mid 20s. Some are parasites for their entire existence.

Most would agree that what's in the womb in the first trimester doesn't resemble a baby at all and would overwhelmingly support legalized abortions in this time frame.
Most would agree that what's in the womb in the third trimester very much resembles a baby and that abortions shouldn't be allowed at this stage of the pregnancy.

So if the country were to vote on the legality of abortion, my guess is that:
a) it would be legal, and b) the line of legality would be drawn somewhere in the 2nd trimester.

As for men having a say in the procedure, I guess it comes down to whether or not they are willing to pay for the prenatal care / hospitalization of the mother and take legal custody of the kid if the mom doesn't want it. If they have shown themselves willing and able to do all that, then by all means they should have a say. If they aren't willing to do that, then they can just **** off.

The laws in my state require the woman name a father if he is known but many times the woman not in a committed relationship does not so they can have control over the baby. Most likely the guy doesn't want the financial burden so the state gets it.

You think so though? I would think there are millions of parents looking for kids to adopt. I'm not saying the woman has to take care of the baby for her whole life, just that she needs to suck it up for 9 months. Is that really so much to ask?

I have rarely if ever had a woman chose adoption. Unfortunately there is more of a stigma to give a child up than to carry it and keep or to abort. Also the potential adoption parent pool wants mostly perfest little white babies. Not sure what the percentage is of the potential babies but there are a lot of non-white, medically encumbered babies who are left.

Just sucking it up for 9 months? are you serious? We have the substance users, alcoholics or generally unwell women who don't care for themselves for 1 day, the women who are very ill medically during pregnancy, the unstable mentally. None of them suck it up for 9 months without extreme change. Not successfully very often. I think maybe we should stitch a moving, living thing in your scrotum and make sure you do everything for it for 9 months before you say something like that!!!

Yikes! What happens when somebody uninsured hits me?

You are screwed and your insurance chases them, so it lasts for ever.

Minnfan you do realize it isnt the 1700s right?

On another topic, I watched the HBO documentary on Reagan the other night and while I have no real issue with Reagan on the whole (he played tghe role of President perfect for what the people needed at the time) I have to wonder why he is so revered considering he was flat out caught committing impeachable offenses (lying to Congress, lying to the people, crimes against the Constitution, illegal funding...etc.) and even admitted as much to the people long after he was caught. (and shifted the blame to others like a coward) Not to mention the fact that as President of the SAG he became an informant for the FBI (despite his not naming names for HUAC) behind the scenes selling out the people he was supposed to represent and protect. He ballooned the deficit, killed the middle class, did nothing to shrink government, ignored the AIDS epidemic, and betrayed pretty much everyone. So why is it that despite all that the GOP hold him in the same regard as Abraham Lincoln or other greats of our time?

This is an honest question, I am not trying to fan any flames I just want to know.

He was able to charm speak and tell everyone exactly what they wanted to hear. I have wondered this same question for yrs. After his house of cards fell down (which I had been saying would happen to my friends when we were teens) no one seemed to connect the sequlae was ever attached to the policies that were Scarlet O'Hara to the max. (think about it later)

I can't spell! Late for work. Pretend I can type.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I'm curious where pro-life person stand on Medicaid... since it's mostly spent on women and children health. Looks like 5million more people enrolled in Medicaid from 2008 to 2010.

http://dhhs.gov/asfr/ob/docbudget/2010budgetinbriefm.html

Medicaid Breakdown:
26.2million children, 12.4million adults (mostly women), 8.9milion blind/disabled and 4.8million 65 and over. total 53.3 million

What on earth does being pro-life have to do with spending money on womens and childrens' health? Huh?

In the end, Medicaid is part of the bloated, unfunded federal spending that goes on, but that applies across most of the rest of the budget to. I don't know, are you saying that pro-lifers are fiscal conservatives or something. Again

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

What on earth does being pro-life have to do with spending money on womens and childrens' health? Huh?

In the end, Medicaid is part of the bloated, unfunded federal spending that goes on, but that applies across most of the rest of the budget to. I don't know, are you saying that pro-lifers are fiscal conservatives or something. Again

Unfunded? I have money taken out of my check every two weeks that goes to Medicaid. The unfunded stuff is the stuff they spend the money on by borrowing against Social Security and Medicare. Case in point, there is no war tax. There is no oil lobby tax. There is no............etc. etc. etc. So, don't call the things that are actually funded, unfunded.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Unfunded? I have money taken out of my check every two weeks that goes to Medicaid. The unfunded stuff is the stuff they spend the money on by borrowing against Social Security and Medicare. Case in point, there is no war tax. There is no oil lobby tax. There is no............etc. etc. etc. So, don't call the things that are actually funded, unfunded.

Maybe you've heard of the federal budget deficit? Or apparently maybe not.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Maybe you've heard of the federal budget deficit? Or apparently maybe not.

Yeah, I have. That's where the government lied about how much they wanted to spend and took all our Social Security money and ****ed it down a hole. I remember it well. Two of the biggest holes are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other hole is right in the heart of New York City.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, I have. That's where the government lied about how much they wanted to spend and took all our Social Security money and ****ed it down a hole. I remember it well. Two of the biggest holes are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other hole is right in the heart of New York City.

Al Gore wanted to put it in a lock box, but he sounded too intellectual and rural whites wanted a president they could go to Monster Trucks with.

How'd that work out?

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Except there's no middle class, and the poor stay poor due to racist oppressive white business owners - so sorry, those people are stuck being poor.

Except prisons are overcrowded because states don't want to build them (and the standard NIMBY opposition to their construction, similar to nuclear plants).

It's suboptimal because the uneducated poor are reproducing at a much faster rate than the educated types that can afford kids (even when you account for all the abortions).

I'm advocating a kid transfer, not a wealth transfer. Transferring wealth does nothing to address the fact that many of these people are bad parents.

Everybody's middle class by definition because everyone has the same amount of money. The prisons are empty..because as you said previously, the reason people are in prison is because they don't have money...hence the reason for your suggested solution. And lastly with equal amounts of money, everyone can afford the same education.

I'm warming up to this new idea.

So your idea of aborting fetus' of low income families:

- Incur the cost of abortions for millions of fetus'...it kind of reminds me of Hitlers cost of bullets in concentration camps

The new idea of redistributing wealth:

- No new costs...just adjust taxes
- No risk of killing of the guy who cures cancer
- Less risk of Egyptian style revolt...poor and Christians (Jesus would approve) happy and the rich never protest

So to move on...enough giving you bs about this. I didn't take me but few posts to come up with a morally bankrupt and economically disastrous solution (that of disincentivising the rich) that was greatly improved over your morally bankrupt and economically disastrous solution (that of wiping out the country's labor pool).

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Follow the prior posted link, please. I can't take you back in time to when it was really obvious that this meme was simply invented to cover the embarrassment of Wall Street blowing out the economy and losing the House for 50 years, but I'll try.

I am old enough to remember when the "FDR extended the depression" meme was still in its infancy, in the mid-70's in Objectivist circles. It had that wonderful allure of being sedition and contrary to all established theory and so it was very attractive for teenagers. It was also a lot like believing in flying saucers (the absence of evidence proves the conspiracy) -- that everybody else disagreed somehow meant you must be right. After all, Howard Roark... It was secret knowledge.

And then the Echo Chamber discovered this cute, quirky little nutbar meme and decided to do what they do with everything: just declare it as "fact" on their media. And for the people who got there news from there... suddenly, it became "fact." What did they know of economics? But Rush knew.

Roger Ailes is a genius of relativism. He created his own relative truth, completely dispensed with the idea of peer review, and got away with it because for even the tenth of his audience who could spell "falsifiability," play-pretend just felt so much better than reality.

I don't know about you, but I'll put some weight behind FDR's own Tresuary Secretary saying that it was a failure.

"We have tried spending money. We are spending more than we have ever spent before and it does not work. And I have just one interest, and if I am wrong … somebody else can have my job. I want to see this country prosperous. I want to see people get a job. I want to see people get enough to eat. We have never made good on our promises. … I say after eight years of this Administration we have just as much unemployment as when we started. … And an enormous debt to boot."

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Al Gore wanted to put it in a lock box, but he sounded too intellectual and rural whites wanted a president they could go to Monster Trucks with.

How'd that work out?

wow, I've found someone who believed that lock box nonsense from Gore.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, I have. That's where the government lied about how much they wanted to spend and took all our Social Security money and ****ed it down a hole. I remember it well. Two of the biggest holes are in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other hole is right in the heart of New York City.

Wow, you really don't understand federal budget financials at all do you? We're 15 trillion in the whole or whatever this minute's tally is, and it's all the fault of Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9/11? You never cease to surprise me with the stuff you throw out there.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Wow, you really don't understand federal budget financials at all do you? We're 15 trillion in the whole or whatever this minute's tally is, and it's all the fault of Iraq, Afghanistan, and 9/11? You never cease to surprise me with the stuff you throw out there.

No, you misunstood what I wrote. As usual. I understand what the debt is and I certainly understand most of the causes. What you fail to acknowledge is at least Social Security and Medicaid are funded. They are separate line items when we are taxed. The other crap isn't. It's the difference between understanding funded and unfunded. NCLB is unfunded. Special Education is unfunded. etc.

You never cease to amaze me with how partisan your lenses are.

EDIT: oh, and my New York reference wasn't 9/11 it was Wall Street.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

wow, I've found someone who believed that lock box nonsense from Gore.

Because funding insulated from raiding for the general fund would have been "nonsense," even though raiding the fund is what caused the problem?

That doesn't even make sense by the low standard of Fox talking points.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

No, you misunderstood what I wrote.

I don't think they misunderstood, Scoob. They were completely wrong, logic would have shown them but they weren't open to it, and now history has exposed them but there is simply no way for them to admit it, either to the world or even to themselves. Like Marxists, they are going to go to the grave insisting they were right. Everybody else has moved on. The ideological stances of 1980-2010 Republicans have less relevance to the present or future than bi-metalism.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Because funding insulated from raiding for the general fund would have been "nonsense," even though raiding the fund is what caused the problem?

That doesn't even make sense by the low standard of Fox talking points.

Gore's pronouncement was meaningless campaign tripe and you know it.