The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

[bostonewe]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yikes! What happens when somebody uninsured hits me?

I have no idea. (A tiny part of me is afraid to find out)

NB: I have auto insurance. Just because it's not required doesn't mean it's not a good idea to have it.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Move to NH. Auto insurance is not required in this state.

I could've sworn liability insurance was still required when I registered my car there. Maybe not, which is why my insurance rates were so freaking high (even after accounting for me not being 25 at that point in time).

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Taxing and spending power for the general welfare. There's really not any question of that one, even by conservative jurists.

Please read the Federalist papers. Taxing and spending only applies to those things that were specficially laid out in the constitution until it was completely torn apart by FDR.

If the gov't can do pretty much anything under "general welfare" then why specifically enumerate what the gov't is allowed to do right after that?

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Assuming you're serious...even using your own logic, you're probably mistaken. The average value add to society by just about any segment of the population is net positive.

Not if that person becomes a criminal and drains the society via money spent on investigating the crime, prosecuting it, and incarcerating the guilty. A significant portion of unwanted children become criminals. This is not something that can be easily dismissed (and it was covered at length in "Freakonomics").

So even by a strictly financial point of view, at the end of an abortion you have a net cost of $400. At the end of a birth and prenatal care, you have - $7000-$17000 plus a positive net present value of an average person...which likely for each segment of the population, averages somewhere in the hundreds of thousands.

Your argument is undermined by the fact that many babies carried to term are raised by the poor and are thus subsidized by taxpayers via the child tax credit and various programs that cost massive amounts to fund. So the cost isn't capped at the $7000-$17000 figure. It's often much much higher than that (gotta add school lunch programs et al to this total). And again, aborted fetuses do not represent a random population distribution. Nearly half are carried by mothers under the poverty line. Another ~1/4 are carried by mothers between 1-2x the poverty level. So even they would require some subsidy I imagine.

Further analysis would likely show that the vast majority of these fetuses are carried by single mothers. So, unless some arrangement is made to pay for their birth/care *and* to transfer them to adoptive parents that can afford to raise them, I would say eliminating abortion would be a net drain on society, mostly due to the dramatically higher crime rates that we would have if it did not exist.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Please read the Federalist papers. Taxing and spending only applies to those things that were specficially laid out in the constitution until it was completely torn apart by FDR.

If the gov't can do pretty much anything under "general welfare" then why specifically enumerate what the gov't is allowed to do right after that?

Yeah, we should go back to the policies that brought us the Great Depression. After all this depression we just had wasn't big enough.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Please read the Federalist papers. Taxing and spending only applies to those things that were specficially laid out in the constitution until it was completely torn apart by FDR.

There has been a debate over the scope of federal powers and appropriate spending for our entire history. Today's battles are a replay of the same battle in 1950, 1900, 1850, 1800, etc... Twas ever thus.

By all means try to move the needle -- to some degree I think you are right that we have rescoped the federal government too large during the last few decades (or to be more accurate we have let the states off the hook thus leading to today's pseudo-conservative rhetoric that preaches federalism while free-riding off the feds). But don't try to pass this off as anything more than what it is: an ongoing social negotiation.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Please read the Federalist papers. Taxing and spending only <b>applies</b> to those things that were specficially laid out in the constitution until it was completely torn apart by FDR.

Sorry, but you've got your tense wrong, there. You meant to say applied, as the current definition applies exactly as I stated.

I dare you to find a single federal trial judge that would use the 1700's definition over the one that is the basis for modern jurisprudence. As much as you'd enjoy the chaos that followed a complete upheaval of the system, it's not going to happen.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, we should go back to the policies that brought us the Great Depression. After all this depression we just had wasn't big enough.

What a complete red herring. Please tell me how the Constitution created the Great Depression. I can point out how FDR tearing apart the constitution is what made the depression great, but I'm really curious to see how you made this leap.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Sorry, but you've got your tense wrong, there. You meant to say applied, as the current definition applies exactly as I stated.

I dare you to find a single federal trial judge that would use the 1700's definition over the one that is the basis for modern jurisprudence. As much as you'd enjoy the chaos that followed a complete upheaval of the system, it's not going to happen.

Well, I can start with the one who just ruled down in Florida. I'll also point you to United States vs. Lopez.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

What a complete red herring. Please tell me how the Constitution created the Great Depression. I can point out how FDR tearing apart the constitution is what made the depression great, but I'm really curious to see how you made this leap.

The Constitution itself didn't cause the Great Depression, though I will note that economic boom-bust cycles were much more pronounced pre-1940 than they have been since.

I'd say the formal establishment of the Federal Reserve and things like the FDIC have added greater stability than anything else.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Well, I can start with the one who just ruled down in Florida. I'll also point you to United States vs. Lopez.

So I'm grilling you about the taxing and spending powers, and you give me cases dealing with the commerce clause? Those are two separate enumerated powers.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

What a complete red herring. Please tell me how the Constitution created the Great Depression. I can point out how FDR tearing apart the constitution is what made the depression great, but I'm really curious to see how you made this leap.

The Constitution allowed slavery for decades. I'm not the one making the leap here, the Constitution allows for a lot of things including the recent collapse of the economy. Your Constitution worship hasn't solved a single social problem since it was written.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

What a complete red herring. Please tell me how the Constitution created the Great Depression. I can point out how FDR tearing apart the constitution is what made the depression great, but I'm really curious to see how you made this leap.

Except that it's a fairly settled matter among serious economists (not the ones paid by the CPAC) that the Great Depression was prolonged because FDR was pressured to scale back his policies too early.

You are repeating, perhaps innocently, a talking point from the usual suspects.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, we should go back to the policies that brought us the Great Depression.

Expand on this. The way I'm reading it, your post implies that the Great Depression was brought about by insufficient government spending/taxation in general and a lack of social programs like social security in particular. That's a bit far-fetched, to say the least.

 

[Handyman]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Minnfan you do realize it isnt the 1700s right?

On another topic, I watched the HBO documentary on Reagan the other night and while I have no real issue with Reagan on the whole (he played tghe role of President perfect for what the people needed at the time) I have to wonder why he is so revered considering he was flat out caught committing impeachable offenses (lying to Congress, lying to the people, crimes against the Constitution, illegal funding...etc.) and even admitted as much to the people long after he was caught. (and shifted the blame to others like a coward) Not to mention the fact that as President of the SAG he became an informant for the FBI (despite his not naming names for HUAC) behind the scenes selling out the people he was supposed to represent and protect. He ballooned the deficit, killed the middle class, did nothing to shrink government, ignored the AIDS epidemic, and betrayed pretty much everyone. So why is it that despite all that the GOP hold him in the same regard as Abraham Lincoln or other greats of our time?

This is an honest question, I am not trying to fan any flames I just want to know.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

There has been a debate over the scope of federal powers and appropriate spending for our entire history. Today's battles are a replay of the same battle in 1950, 1900, 1850, 1800, etc... Twas ever thus.

By all means try to move the needle -- to some degree I think you are right that we have rescoped the federal government too large during the last few decades (or to be more accurate we have let the states off the hook thus leading to today's pseudo-conservative rhetoric that preaches federalism while free-riding off the feds). But don't try to pass this off as anything more than what it is: an ongoing social negotiation.

I think you (and many others here) would enjoy this book. Basically about a return to states' rights and how most of the issues we debate over should be settled at the state level. It does a very good job of explaining how we got to where we are today as well.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The Constitution allowed slavery for decades. I'm not the one making the leap here, the Constitution allows for a lot of things including the recent collapse of the economy. Your Constitution worship hasn't solved a single social problem since it was written.

Again, how did it create the Great Depression?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I think you (and many others here) would enjoy this book. Basically about a return to states' rights and how most of the issues we debate over should be settled at the state level. It does a very good job of explaining how we got to where we are today as well.

You're citing Jason Lewis? Did he ever explain why he moved back to Minnesota after he had finally left us to the utopia of the Carolina's?

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I think you (and many others here) would enjoy this book. Basically about a return to states' rights and how most of the issues we debate over should be settled at the state level. It does a very good job of explaining how we got to where we are today as well.

I think I'll stick to the Federalist Papers, Edmund Burke, and Russell Kirk. Heck even Lew Rockwell (on alternative Thursdays when he isn't insane).

There are intelligent conservative voices out there. They just aren't present in today's conservative media.

 

[MinnFan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Except that it's a fairly settled matter among serious economists (not the ones paid by the CPAC) that the Great Depression was prolonged because FDR was pressured to scale back his policies too early.

You are repeating, perhaps innocently, a talking point from the usual suspects.

No, I'm going with the numbers. Why the huge double-dip if FDRs policies worked so well?