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The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

The private sector has to provide what people want or they will be out of business.

Not true. The private sector only has to provide the least offensive to stay in business. That's a far cry from being what people want.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

So McDonalds offers steak, lobster, pepsi products, and beer? No? Then they limit my choices, just the same as any other restaraunt.

Which is fine when there are 1000's of other restaraunts and supermarkets to choose from. Health care is not nearly as competitive, it's essentially an oligopoly or, in some cases, nearly a monopoly.

Also, comparing health care to lunch options, as though the two are anywhere near the same level of importance, is just awesomely sad.

And what is the cause for the lack of competition? Government. The gov't is the one who mandates that every McDonalds has to have steak, lobster, etc... It is the reason I can't go buy a policy from Idaho where there are only 4 mandates. I'm a pretty healthy guy. Why can't I just go out and get something that covers me for cancer and broken bones? Why do I have to pay for pregnancy coverage? You've gotta love it when the gov't ties the hands of private enterprise, forces costs to rise and then blames that very same enterprise for the rise in costs.

The simple truth is that we haven't had health insurance for quite some time. What we have is pre-paid healthcare.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

And what is the cause for the lack of competition? Government.

Yeah, no. Research barriers to entry, natural monopoly, fixed costs, and public goods.

Frankly, the only reason we're in this position is due to the historical accident of WWII's wage fixing causing a link between health insurance to employment. If things had gone even slightly differently, we'd probably already have a single payer system life every other civilized country on the planet.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, no. Research barriers to entry, natural monopoly, fixed costs, and public goods.

Frankly, the only reason we're in this position is due to the historical accident of WWII's wage fixing causing a link between health insurance to employment. If things had gone even slightly differently, we'd probably already have a single payer system life every other civilized country on the planet.

Correct.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, no. Research barriers to entry, natural monopoly, fixed costs, and public goods.

Frankly, the only reason we're in this position is due to the historical accident of WWII's wage fixing causing a link between health insurance to employment. If things had gone even slightly differently, we'd probably already have a single payer system life every other civilized country on the planet.

Communist!
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, no. Research barriers to entry, natural monopoly, fixed costs, and public goods.

Frankly, the only reason we're in this position is due to the historical accident of WWII's wage fixing causing a link between health insurance to employment. If things had gone even slightly differently, we'd probably already have a single payer system life every other civilized country on the planet.

Take a look at how many MRIs there are in Canada compared to here or how long you have to wait to be seen by a specialist. Tell me how civilized that system is. Take a look at England and how they are moving away from their public system because it isn't working. Tell me how its civilized to have people crammed in the hallways of hospitals for weeks because they don't have enough room. How is it civilized to have the ability to save someone's life who is willing to pay for the procedure and tell them no because the gov't won't cover it.

We agree with the cause of our current state. Insurance should not be tied to employment. But my take is that if you allow people to have the same deduction that they give employers that would be very happy to buy their own insurance and would never allow the gov't in. Do you want a gov't run car insurance system?
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

free markets. they always work. dependable in an undependable world.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Do you want a gov't run car insurance system?

Meh - I've got no love for car insurance either, but there are several key differences between health insurance and pretty much all other forms of insurance (car, homeowners/renters, life, etc.). The others all compensate you financially after the fact. Bad event X happens, they pay you Y. They reneg on the deal, you can go to court and while it might take years, you're still only out money in the interim.

If health insurance decides not to cover your chemo, you're farked more than just financially. You can still take them to court, but you'll probably die in the meantime.

There's a healthy competition between traditional insurers which has never existed among health insurers. Primarily because they areare actual insurers in the traditional sense while health insurance is almost a misnomer in this day and age. You're not paying for insurance, you're paying for coverage.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

I would change from work to efficient. They are always the best means to distribute resources.

Yeah, not even Adam Smith would agree with that one. There are such things as market failures.

At most you can say the market is the best means to distribute resources under ideal theoretical conditions. This being the real world, conditions will never be ideal.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, not even Adam Smith would agree with that one. There are such things as market failures.

But that isn't because the market wasn't efficient. It is because of influences into the market that create irrational (for lack of a better term) bubbles/shortfalls, which the market corrects when the influence is taken away.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Yeah, not even Adam Smith would agree with that one. There are such things as market failures.

At most you can say the market is the best means to distribute resources under ideal theoretical conditions. This being the real world, conditions will never be ideal.

Ideal conditions. Lead in toys, Mercury in the water, pollution, child labor laws, etc. etc. etc. All solved by free markets.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

But that isn't because the market wasn't efficient. It is because of influences into the market that create irrational (for lack of a better term) bubbles/shortfalls, which the market corrects when the influence is taken away.

The market is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Where society's goals conflict with what even an otherwise efficient market provides, then the problem is still with the market, not society's goals.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Meh - I've got no love for car insurance either, but there are several key differences between health insurance and pretty much all other forms of insurance (car, homeowners/renters, life, etc.). The others all compensate you financially after the fact. Bad event X happens, they pay you Y. They reneg on the deal, you can go to court and while it might take years, you're still only out money in the interim.

If health insurance decides not to cover your chemo, you're farked more than just financially. You can still take them to court, but you'll probably die in the meantime.

There's a healthy competition between traditional insurers which has never existed among health insurers. Primarily because they areare actual insurers in the traditional sense while health insurance is almost a misnomer in this day and age. You're not paying for insurance, you're paying for coverage.

Never existed? There used to be a lot more health insurance companies than there are now. Heck, there were even fraternal organizations that would take care of each other without the need for formal insurance. Gov't has been the one to drive out competition.

I appreciate your example, but there is no reason that health insurance couldn't work more like that. If the company doens't pay for it then you go out of pocket (or into debt) until you get repaid. I would have no problem working to fasttrack those cases so that payment can be recouped sooner.

Unfortnately, I've got to run so I can't continue a back-and-forth. I just want to end with this:

There is no place in the constitution where it says that the Federal gov't should be a charity. For those who say the General Welfare Clause please read the Federalist Papers and see the Framer's explaination. Also, why bother having the rest of the constitution limit gov't if you've just said it can do anything it wants.

With freedom comes responsibility. You're responsible for yourself. Its great if people want to help each other (and most do), but it isn't the role of gov't to take by force from one person to give it to another.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

There is no place in the constitution where it says that the Federal gov't should be a charity. For those who say the General Welfare Clause please read the Federalist Papers and see the Framer's explaination. Also, why bother having the rest of the constitution limit gov't if you've just said it can do anything it wants.
There is no part of the constitution that talks about the bank system but I bet you use a FDIC insured bank without complaint.

Convenient to you = a-ok otherwise **** off I got mine.
 
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Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

With freedom comes responsibility. You're responsible for yourself. Its great if people want to help each other (and most do), but it isn't the role of gov't to take by force from one person to give it to another.

That's great, So, start letting people die if they don't have health insurance. We could save a butt load of money.
 
Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

That's great, So, start letting people die if they don't have health insurance. We could save a butt load of money.

Cutting the social safety net at the same time will ensure more people get sick, too. Especially the right kind of people, if you catch my meaning...
 
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