The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

[leswp1]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

IMPOSSIBLE! The Free Market is perfect and allows for everyone to win and have a pony! There is no way that businesses could fail under it because it is perfect!

You are obviously wrong, the government forced them into this, not their own stupidity and recklessness. Businesses never fail when all things are equal under the greatness that is Adam Smith.

Sorry I should know better.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

In this area it was the insurance companies driving each other out by underbidding until the other guy folded. There are other options but the market is so tied up in the big one the little ones (even the medium ones) can't compete. In the end everyone is paying more because the big one is making huge profit (and the CEO will be in Hell) and the little ones just try to keep up. The price increases have been ridiculous for longer than the new Bill and do not reflect the cost to provide. I do notice the CEO gets reimbursed megamillions. He must be doing something right.

Once again- medicine should not be for profit.

Socialist!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Socialist!

Just get the gubbermint out of my Medicare!!!!

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

In this area it was the insurance companies driving each other out by underbidding until the other guy folded. There are other options but the market is so tied up in the big one the little ones (even the medium ones) can't compete. In the end everyone is paying more because the big one is making huge profit (and the CEO will be in Hell) and the little ones just try to keep up. The price increases have been ridiculous for longer than the new Bill and do not reflect the cost to provide. I do notice the CEO gets reimbursed megamillions. He must be doing something right.

Once again- medicine should not be for profit.

I thought I remember hearing that Minnesota insurance companies must be not-for-profit in one respect or another.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

IMPOSSIBLE! The Free Market is perfect and allows for everyone to win and have a pony! There is no way that businesses could fail under it because it is perfect!

You are obviously wrong, the government forced them into this, not their own stupidity and recklessness. Businesses never fail when all things are equal under the greatness that is Adam Smith.

That's exactly my point though. The situation leswp described is hardly capitalism. If you want actual capitalism, what if companies were allowed to compete across state lines? What if we allowed health companies to really choose what they wanted to cover? What if health savings accounts were expanded? There are a whole host of solutions that would actually involve a free market, not the situation desribed above that you seem to feel represents one.

As for your point about there being no way businesses could fail, that's not a free market idea. In fact, the free market is wonderful because it allows businesses to fail. Or it's supposed to at least.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

That's exactly my point though. The situation leswp described is hardly capitalism. If you want actual capitalism, what if companies were allowed to compete across state lines? What if we allowed health companies to really choose what they wanted to cover? What if health savings accounts were expanded? There are a whole host of solutions that would actually involve a free market, not the situation desribed above that you seem to feel represents one.

As for your point about there being no way businesses could fail, that's not a free market idea. In fact, the free market is wonderful because it allows businesses to fail. Or it's supposed to at least.

Didn't you hear? Failure isn't allowed anymore. Everyone gets a prize and everybody feels good about themselves.

Someone needs to send a memo to the left that "all men are created equal" doesn't mean "all men remain equal throughout life".

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Didn't you hear? Failure isn't allowed anymore. Everyone gets a prize and everybody feels good about themselves.

Someone needs to send a memo to the left that "all men are created equal" doesn't mean "all men remain equal throughout life".

Absolutely. Some people are born to be Serfs and others are born to be Lords. No question about it.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Someone needs to send a memo to the left that "all men are created equal" doesn't mean "all men remain equal throughout life".

Send that memo to Paris Hilton.

 

[Foxton]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Someone needs to send a memo to the left that "all men are created equal" doesn't mean "all men remain equal throughout life".

But of course, all men are equal but some are more equal than others.

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Send that memo to Paris Hilton.

That her father gives her money is beyond anyone's control. I presume he could pull the plug on her wealth at any time. Nothing is stopping you from trying to find a sugar mama to fund your drunken escapades, if that's the route you'd like to take.

But of course, all men are equal but some are more equal than others.

Animal Farm. Classic. Excellent commentary on what always occurs in socialistic/communistic societies.

Either way, my point was more of a commentary on our "inalienable rights" and what we choose do with them......not how it's supposedly unfair that some people are born into wealthy families. Life's not fair. Deal.

 

[Priceless]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

That her father gives her money is beyond anyone's control. I presume he could pull the plug on her wealth at any time. Nothing is stopping you from trying to find a sugar mama to fund your drunken escapades, if that's the route you'd like to take.



Animal Farm. Classic. Excellent commentary on what always occurs in socialistic/communistic societies.

Either way, my point was more of a commentary on our "inalienable rights" and what we choose do with them......not how it's supposedly unfair that some people are born into wealthy families. Life's not fair. Deal.

If only I had crawled out of a different womb...

 

[Plante26]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

If only I had crawled out of a different womb...

Yeah. I feel bad for you. You have no chance, nor have you ever had a chance, to make something of yourself. And rich people are to blame. Booeffinhoo.

Pathetic. Stop your whining, sally boy.

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

That's exactly my point though. The situation leswp described is hardly capitalism. If you want actual capitalism, what if companies were allowed to compete across state lines? What if we allowed health companies to really choose what they wanted to cover? What if health savings accounts were expanded? There are a whole host of solutions that would actually involve a free market, not the situation desribed above that you seem to feel represents one.

But that's again assuming health care is best allocated by the free market; I don't agree with that assumption. That also ignores the problem that society doesn't allow people to gamble (ie, if you forego health insurance and get injured in a car wreck, you'll still be treated at the E.R. regardless of your ability to pay).

Now, you can say that the latter situation would not happen in a truly free market, which is, I'll admit theoretically true but likewise point out this is the real world with all its imperfections, not a theoretical study. But I also reiterate what I told MinnFan, the free market is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Society's flat out said that is not an acceptable outcome, so the means of distribution must take that into account.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

But that's again assuming health care is best allocated by the free market; I don't agree with that assumption. That also ignores the problem that society doesn't allow people to gamble (ie, if you forego health insurance and get injured in a car wreck, you'll still be treated at the E.R. regardless of your ability to pay).

Now, you can say that the latter situation would not happen in a truly free market, which is, I'll admit theoretically true but likewise point out this is the real world with all its imperfections, not a theoretical study. But I also reiterate what I told MinnFan, the free market is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Society's flat out said that is not an acceptable outcome, so the means of distribution must take that into account.

Okay, that's fair. However, my larger point, again, was to say that people railing against the free market with regards to healthcare are sorely mistaken, because there isn't one. You can say that's a good thing of course, and I take your point.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Where are people getting the idea the US healthcare system is a free market or anything approaching one?

Most hospitals are non-profits and the health insurance industry is basically an oligopoly.

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Most hospitals are non-profits

Source?

I'll bet the large majority of hospitals are units of for-profit corporations.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Source?

I'll bet the large majority of hospitals are units of for-profit corporations.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/june/forprofit_hospitals.php

2nd paragraph: "In an accompanying editorial, Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein of Harvard Medical School calculate that converting all investor-owned hospitals (13 percent of U.S. hospitals) to non-profit ownership could have saved $6 billion of the $37 billion spent on care at investor-owned hospitals in 2001."

 

[Kepler]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2004/june/forprofit_hospitals.php

2nd paragraph: "In an accompanying editorial, Drs. Steffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein of Harvard Medical School calculate that converting all investor-owned hospitals (13 percent of U.S. hospitals) to non-profit ownership could have saved $6 billion of the $37 billion spent on care at investor-owned hospitals in 2001."

Doesn't that mean that 13% are publicly-traded (perhaps a very small percentage of all privately-owned hospitals)?

 

[unofan]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Source?

I'll bet the large majority of hospitals are units of for-profit corporations.

I'd disagree with that, if only to the extent that a large chunk of hospitals are attached to universities.

Thinking purely about Omaha (yes yes, the plural of anecdote isn't data, sue me) - there's the U of Nebraska Med Center and Creighton/St. Joe's. Then there's Methodist Health System and Alegent Health System in charge of the rest, both of which I believe are non-profit corporations.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: The 112th Congress - A Congress divided shall not cry!

Here's this, from the ever reliable Wikipedia (the citation is to a GAO report though so it seems accurate)

In 2003, of the roughly 3,900 nonfederal, short-term, acute care general hospitals in the United States, the majority—about 62 percent—were nonprofit. The rest included government hospitals (20 percent) and for-profit hospitals (18 percent).