Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

[bueller]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

The Israelis use highly trained interrogators who throw lots of questions, seemingly with no purpose, very quickly. And you better have the right answers, don't even think about lying to them. They're also looking at body language, eye movement and other indicators. These are very highly trained, professionals, not drop outs from some "Rent a cop" school.

If you want to find a needle in a haystack, a good place to start is to reduce the size of the haystack. As long as we continue to think that Sister Theresa and a young Muslim dude wearing a "death to the Great Satan" tee present identical risks, we wll continue to subject millions of Americans to avoidable risks of being murdered, and ever more humiliating "security" procedures.

Behavioral profiling will work since it's pretty hard to act normal when you know you're about to die. But I don't reducing the size of the hay stack will work. The terrorists will simply find people that don't fit that profile.

3 studies, including one by Johns Hopkins showed minimal rads.

Yes, but those rads are being distributed into particularly sensitive tissues such as those in the breast and testicular areas (http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2010/05/17/concern.pdf).

Also, don't expect things to change either since our elected official aren't subject this **** on the rare occasion they do fly commercially.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/no-security-pat-downs-for-boehner/?nl=us&emc=politicsemailema1

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Correct, thats how small the odds are of being killed in a terrorist attack. The radiation dose is minimal, but that adds up for frequent travelers, and a small percentage of the population are more susceptible to radiation damage. If you are only doing it on a few people it isn't a big risk, but if you add it up over the however many million airplane travelers per year, it starts to add up to a real risk. We are much better off spending the money on intelligence and actually stopping the attackers before they get to the airport, which is the only way we have ever actually managed to stop an attack. At this point the terrorists can either hide it up their ***, or just go bomb the security line where there are frequently more people present than there are on an airplane. The only significant improvement we've made in airplane security since 2001 is reinforcing the cockpit doors, and arming the pilots/flight marshals.

The rads were shown to be equivilent to less than 30 seconds of flight at 30K ft. I think it would be interesting for them to have folks carry the little gizmos that the rad techs do to monitor exposure.

It would be nice to spend the $ on intelligence and stop it but I am not ready to trust the intelligence yet. Americans are so weird. We are schizophrenic re security/privacy. I wonder what the rest of the world thinks about the whining going on. Anyone in another country and hearing what they are saying?

 

[bueller]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

The only significant improvement we've made in airplane security since 2001 is reinforcing the cockpit doors, and arming the pilots/flight marshals.

And passengers know to fight back.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

3 studies, including one by Johns Hopkins showed minimal rads.

I just shake my head. Can any gov't win? First we we hear there isn't enough attention to security and the gov't is weak. Everywhere else has better security, etc. They institute measures to address the possibility of a breach in security that they have proven is possible and they are invasive. I would rather have someone 'grope me' then have the alternative which is a lot more drastic if someone succeeds in blowing something up. These people do hundreds of pat downs. Maybe this would excite you but I doubt they much care except to get the person out of their face and move the line along. Of course there is the option of chartering a private jet so no one 'invades' your privacy~ or don't fly. The nonsense about people not flying is silly. How many complaints have there been compared to how many have flown. This is like my kid looking for some injustice to go off about.

The basic flaw in your reasoning is at the heart of this discussion: the risk of terror is evenly spread throughout the traveling public. Therefore everyone needs to be treated like a potential terrorist. Forget the cost, the legality and the manifest lack of efficacy. We've got to do this because "we want to be fair." Well, being "fair" doesn't feed the bulldog and it doesn't enhance our security.

As far as the TSA Barney Fifes are concerned, you seem to be arguing that "they're just following orders." I thought we'd rejected that.

As to flying by private jet, that's just too insipid to deserve a response.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

And passengers know to fight back.

Yeah, my bad. "Let's roll." My mind goes back to that flight. And the gay, 6'6", Jewish rugby player who participated in the passenger revolt. I'm guessing insofar as those Islamist punks were concerned, HE represented the ultimate threat. And I'm hopeful, at the end, this big dude was able to grab one of those monsters around the neck and squeeze.

And the passengers on panty bomber's flight also responded, too. But we should't lose sight of the fact that had his bomb performed as designed, there wouldn't have been enough time to respond. Boom. Same thing for the shoe bomber.

Before 9/11 James Woods was flying somewhere and observed some young middle eastern looking dudes behaving oddly. He reported it and was initially blown off. It turns out what he saw was a 9/11 rehearsal.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

The lunacy of our "one size fits all" approach is sending pilots through security. Gee, if they have evil intent, they don't need to mule anything on board, do they? There was a pilot, from Air Egypt, who put his jumbo in the drink deliberately, but he was, oh nevermind, that would be "profiling."

 

[Handyman]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

So in your desire to avoid "violating the rights of Muslim Americans," you'd refer to violate the rights of ALL Americans? Apart from how silly that is, it doesn't improve our security, which is what this effort is supposed to be about.

I never said that, I think the whole thing is stupid and largely ceremonial. I think it is a waste of time and money, but it makes people FEEL safe (not me) so I dont argue with it.

I have been groped going through line, to me it was no big deal.

Israel and America are two different animals. If America ever becomes like Israel when it comes to a lot of their National Security stuff I am moving to Canada...and I say that as a Jewish person who has relatives there. I believe in Civil Rights for all, Israel does not. America is a shining example, the light in the dark, what every country should be striving to be when it comes to liberty...Israel is what happens when people spend 2000 years being slaughtered and hated because they believe in God differently. They are paranoid, they are scared and they bring a bazooka to a knife fight. (for good reason, I am not criticizing them just comparing) I dont want to be that...not now, not ever.

 

[unofan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I hate this era of whiners. Guess what, Israel doesn't have our Constitutional protections. If you hate America so much, move to a country with less guaranteed liberties.

How is this not considered an unreasonable search upon a person that violates the 4th Amendment?

Regular police and prison guards wish they could do this sort of thing. Sorry, but it's not reasonable to be subjected to worse treatment than a convicted felon simply because I want to exercise my constitutional right to interstate travel.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

At this point the terrorists can either hide it up their ***, or just go bomb the security line where there are frequently more people present than there are on an airplane. The only significant improvement we've made in airplane security since 2001 is reinforcing the cockpit doors, and arming the pilots/flight marshals.

I thought the Saudi terrorist hid the bomb in a body cavity recently. So can the scanner detect a bomb up your butt? or do we need to do a full cavity search?

It would have been so easy to blow up a plane when I used to work at the Airport since no one searched the airport employees. you had to pass the FBI background check but I remember all those JFK ramp guys getting busted stealing passenger bags. So either get a job at the airport or bribe/blackmail an employee if you want to take down multiple planes.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I never said that, I think the whole thing is stupid and largely ceremonial. I think it is a waste of time and money, but it makes people FEEL safe (not me) so I dont argue with it.

I have been groped going through line, to me it was no big deal.

Israel and America are two different animals. If America ever becomes like Israel when it comes to a lot of their National Security stuff I am moving to Canada...and I say that as a Jewish person who has relatives there. I believe in Civil Rights for all, Israel does not. America is a shining example, the light in the dark, what every country should be striving to be when it comes to liberty...Israel is what happens when people spend 2000 years being slaughtered and hated because they believe in God differently. They are paranoid, they are scared and they bring a bazooka to a knife fight. (for good reason, I am not criticizing them just comparing) I dont want to be that...not now, not ever.

Again we agree. Somebody called it "security theatre," and that's what it is.

As far as Israel is concerned, I'm advocating an exploration of their airport security methods to see if we might improve our security. I'm not suggesting we become Israel. And I don't disagree with your observations in the abstract, certainly not about America and not about Israel either. But let's give them a break, shall we? They have suicide bombers to contend with just about everyday. Have been repeatedly attacked over the decades by enemies who want their country wiped off the map. And their state was founded in reaction to one of the great crimes in all of history. And the leader of a nearby power, which is developing nuclear weapons, has talked ominously about incinerating them. How would we react under those circumstances?

What was it Golda Meir said: "President Sadat, what took you so long?"

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

The lunacy of our "one size fits all" approach is sending pilots through security. Gee, if they have evil intent, they don't need to mule anything on board, do they? There was a pilot, from Air Egypt, who put his jumbo in the drink deliberately, but he was, oh nevermind, that would be "profiling."

That is being re-addressed.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/no-security-pat-downs-for-boehner/?nl=us&emc=politicsemailema1

This is a tough one. I don't particularly like the double standard, but what in the world is accomplished by giving Boehner a pat down? Or Pelosi, or Reid, or what have you.

 

[unofan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

You maintain the right to not fly if you disapprove of the methods used. If no one flies, because they all agree with you, then the system will either have to change or it will fail. So either way, you will have successfully stopped their practices.

Except it's not the aviation security administration, it's the transportation security administration. They're already starting to takeover security of trains as well, won't be long before they try to implement security on all forms of interstate travel.

Sorry, but the slippery slope applies here. The new porno scanners have a 1:30,000,000 chance of causing cancer, or roughly the same as the odds of dying from a terrorist attack on your plane. So the cure is just as bad as the problem it's trying to prevent, without even considering the other societal issues.

Also, apparently you can go through the normal scanning process an still be subjected to the groping; if the scanner picks up on something (like a ball of lint in your pocket), you'll get double treatment

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I thought the Saudi terrorist hid the bomb in a body cavity recently. So can the scanner detect a bomb up your butt? or do we need to do a full cavity search?

It would have been so easy to blow up a plane when I used to work at the Airport since no one searched the airport employees. you had to pass the FBI background check but I remember all those JFK ramp guys getting busted stealing passenger bags. So either get a job at the airport or bribe/blackmail an employee if you want to take down multiple planes.

I believe the answer is yes. WHen I worked over the ER Xray took an awsome pic of a patient that had a coke bottle shoved up his behind. I imagine the scanner is capable of doing the same with bomb.

 

[pardonme]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I believe the answer is yes. WHen I worked over the ER Xray took an awsome pic of a patient that had a coke bottle shoved up his behind. I imagine the scanner is capable of doing the same with bomb.

No, it can't. These are specially designed to concentrate the x-ray at the skin level, and doesn't penetrate any deeper. It essentially really can only penetrate clothing.

 

[unofan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I call it safety, not indignity. But of course I'm not a paranoid pu$$y afraid of everything.

No, you're not afraid of everything, you're just willing to give up your 4th Amendment rights over the near-zero chance (1/30,000,000) of a terrorist attack.

By that token, you should be willing to submit to a breathalyzer at every interstate on-ramp in the name of safety. Afterall, you're far more likely to die in a collision with a drunk driver than you are in a terrorist attack.

 

[leswp1]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

Except it's not the aviation security administration, it's the transportation security administration. They're already starting to takeover security of trains as well, won't be long before they try to implement security on all forms of interstate travel.

Sorry, but the slippery slope applies here. The new porno scanners have a 1:30,000,000 chance of causing cancer, or roughly the same as the odds of dying from a terrorist attack on your plane. So the cure is just as bad as the problem it's trying to prevent, without even considering the other societal issues.

Also, apparently you can go through the normal scanning process an still be subjected to the groping; if the scanner picks up on something (like a ball of lint in your pocket), you'll get double treatment

Is anyone covering this in a non-inflammatory manner? They only seem to be talking to whiners in the media. Some of the coverage makes them look downright foolish. In the beginning they were interviewing a lot of people who were supportive of it and that didn't mind. This seems to be lost in all the flaming that sells TV. THis would make a great poll.

Also, what is the % of those that are getting the "double treatment"? COmpared to how many are flying I bet it is tiny.

The risk is the same except one guy getting scanned could prevent all the passengers being dead if they catch him.

 

[unofan]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

I wonder what the rest of the world thinks about the whining going on. Anyone in another country and hearing what they are saying?

They're wondering why we're letting our gov't trample our constitutional rights in the name of security theater. Seriously, the new pat downs/scanners solve nothing. It doesn't help when the former TSA head who ordered the things is now the CEO of the company that makes them. But that isn't a conflict of interest at all.

 

[bueller]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

This is a tough one. I don't particularly like the double standard, but what in the world is accomplished by giving Boehner a pat down? Or Pelosi, or Reid, or what have you.

What could be accomplished by switching out luggage since whatever carry-on he had wasn't scanned either? It's not really a credible threat, but neither were underwear or box cutters.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Take a Stand Against Sexual Assault: Resist the TSA

No, you're not afraid of everything, you're just willing to give up your 4th Amendment rights over the near-zero chance (1/30,000,000) of a terrorist attack.

By that token, you should be willing to submit to a breathalyzer at every interstate on-ramp in the name of safety. Afterall, you're far more likely to die in a collision with a drunk driver than you are in a terrorist attack.

Alert the media, we agree on one. To me, it's primarily an issue of efficacy. And despite 65 thousand employees, TSA has yet to uncover a single terror plot, stop a single terror attack or uncover a single terrorist.

It reminds me of the time Hitchcock was asked what a McGuffin was. He responded with the story about the Scottsman who asked a traveling companion what he called that odd looking device was he had with him. The guy responded it's a McGuffin and it keeps Tigers away. The first guy says, there are no Tigers in Scotland. The second guy says, then that's no McGuffin.

We probably disagree about at least considering what the Israelis do, but to me we should either explore ways of really applying some "security" here or just go back to the way things used to be and trust to luck. Because what we're doing now is a huge waste of money and a massive violations of people's rights. The PC here doesn't necessarily refer to Political Correctness, it could also mean "probable cause," of which there is zero.