Shannon Miller out at UMD?

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Fascinating read. It basically boils down to she was supposedly fired for being gay and Canadian, but the biggest issue in the doc was that she was gay. The fact that they hired another gay person does indeed shoot her down. They attempt to make the case that the straight men's coaches are over paid compared to their accomplishments, but it's comparing apples and tyres. Interestingly, @ paragraph 48 she complained about being repeatedly harassed, (which is not acceptable), but she insisted no formal investigation take place, yet it did, which made her unhappy. Why complain about it if you don't want the offending parties identified and punished? What was the athletic dept to do? What did she want them to do? That makes no sense. Is this going before a jury or just a judge?

I think she would have been better off just taking the angle that the atmosphere in the athletic dept was anti-gay, that she did not get the proper support, and left the non-renewal and the Canadian angle out of it entirely. I can see that case being true to the facts and therefore winnable.

"Jury Trial Demanded".

The most important fact in this rhubarb, so far, in my opinion, is that Black publicly admitted early this year that he and Berlo are liars. I doubt that that would be lost on a jury...which is the smart way to go.

If the filed allegations are in fact true I wonder how many sleepless nights some of the administrative collaborating facilitators have had contemplating sitting in the witness box and being grilled by a skilled lawyer?

Ah yes, an institute of higher learning.

Lux Et Veritus Floreant.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The most important fact in this rhubarb, so far, in my opinion, is that Black publicly admitted early this year that he and Berlo are liars. I doubt that that would be lost on a jury...which is the smart way to go.

Saying there is more to the reason for the non-renewal than just money isn't quite the same thing as saying it had nothing to do with money. By your definition, Miller would also seem to be a liar. At first she said she would have gladly taken a pay cut or done what was necessary to remain at UMD, but later she tells a story of being harrassed and her life made miserable. As with Black/Berlo, she is contradicted by her own words.

Her case may have merit. Knowing nothing about Black, Berlo, or the workings of the UMD administration, I don't have access to the facts. But Miller's story is confusing as well. She was let go because she was a) a lesbian; b) a victim of age discrimination; c) Canadian; d) outspoken in her beliefs; e) a target of those who were jealous of her success. Note that she isn't entirely truthful and doesn't raise the fact that her program wasn't nearly as successful as it was when she became the highest paid coach in the sport. In the what have you done for me lately world of coaching, winning one conference playoff round in three seasons doesn't justify being the sport's highest paid coach.

My guess is that a big reason for the contract not being renewed was she wasn't well liked by her bosses. Why? It could be for reasons like her sexual orientation as she claims, but I'm more inclined to think it is because she is difficult to work with. But again, I don't know this to be the truth. There may be a variety of factors. It sounds like at some point she was encouraged to include more student athletes from the area (i.e., daughters of taxpayers) in her recruiting classes. There was some movement in that direction in recent years for the Bulldogs. Miller could highlight this as an example of being willing to compromise. Instead, the story gets muddled with things like being Canadian. Really? She's a U.S. citizen now, so IMO, bringing up such things just confuses the issue and makes it seem like she's throwing things against the wall in the hope that something sticks.

The two sides are likely to tell vastly different stories. Miller's chances of winning a settlement increase if the jury can figure out just what story she is asking them to believe, and at the moment, it is rather convoluted.

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

a year before all this came down she was loudly complaining about being paid less than the men's coach

if anyone fails to grasp how this would negatively affect the environment at your place of employment
as an experiment, try it where you work and see how it affects your relationship with other workers and management

 

[pokechecker]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

"Jury Trial Demanded".

that's funny, I cannot picture Miller doing anything without demanding

as if the opposition wouldn't want a jury trial, LOL

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Saying there is more to the reason for the non-renewal than just money isn't quite the same thing as saying it had nothing to do with money.

Don't you have this backwards?

Black and Berlo initially insisted, repeatedly, that the reason was strictly financial. Then Black later admitted that there was more to it than just finances. That's why I said that Black admitted that he and Berlo are liars.

The "Canadian" thing would certainly seem to be ridiculous on the surface. But place yourself in their shoes. If their allegations are true, and remember that Banford is also making the same claim, and one was being treated this way the natural response would be to try to determine a reason for it. As ridiculous as one might themselves believe that reason to be, if they've repeatedly heard what they believed to be disparaging remarks from the administration about Canadians it's not hard to understand that the question of whether or not someone (in administration) is demented enough to think that way and allow it to affect their behaviour would eventually cross their (Miller and Banford) minds.

Certainly the element of throwing everything you can at the wall to see what might stick comes into it even if they sincerely believe their accusation about the "Canadian" thing because after all, this is a legal battle.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Don't you have this backwards?

No. Both parties are saying something, then later admitting that there is additional information that they didn't include initially, which doesn't make what they did say categorically untrue. Anyway, caught in a lie and caught in a lie under oath are two different things.

I wonder why the assistant coaches didn't join this suit. Their testimony/depositions may be of interest.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

No. Both parties are saying something, then later admitting that there is additional information that they didn't include initially, which doesn't make what they did say categorically untrue. Anyway, caught in a lie and caught in a lie under oath are two different things.

I wonder why the assistant coaches didn't join this suit.

When you insist repeatedly that the only reason is finances and then you later confess that there is more to it than finances...you have lied in your initial assertions. The lie was about the strictly/only part, not about the fact that finances were involved.

I've been thinking about the assistant coaches as well.

Maybe Schuler thought that it might negatively affect her relationship with Hockey Canada. And Kingsbury may have decided that her short tenure didn't make it worth while.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

When you insist repeatedly that the only reason is finances and then you later confess that there is more to it than finances...you have lied in your initial assertions. The lie was about the strictly/only part, not about the fact that finances were involved.

But they can pass that off as just not disclosing everything or a white lie at worst. The sports world is full of statements to the media containing only partial truths. It is commonplace. Miller wasn't being fired. Her contract wasn't being renewed. So it is simple to say that we didn't want to go into all the reasons and drag her name through the mud. Juries will buy that and not think, "You liars!" They could actually think more of Berlo's handling of the situation and opting to keep things professional. Who knows?

IMO, Miller on her own doesn't have much of a case. Whatever she once was, her program hasn't been at that level for a while, and some of her teams have underachieved on the ice. The strength is in the numbers. That's why it would seem best to stick to one issue and have as many plaintiffs as possible.

 

[EastFan1]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

In the what have you done for me lately world of coaching, winning one conference playoff round in three seasons doesn't justify being the sport's highest paid coach.

Miller was told she wasn't coming back in December, 2014. In the three years before that moment in time, she had split play-off series with Ohio State, beat Wisconsin and lost twice to Minnesota. So really it's just losing to Minnesota twice if you are using a 3 year look back.

Pretty unreasonable to compare the difficulty of winning in women's hockey at UMD to winning at Minnesota.

 

[KTDC]

Pretty unreasonable to compare the difficulty of winning in women's hockey at UMD to winning at Minnesota.

I don't think anyone is comparing the difficulty of winning at UMD and at Minnesota. Some Johnny-come-latelys are cherry picking the '5 National Championships' stat to claim it was outrageous she wasn't renewed.

I think she wasn't renewed because she was a huge pain in the butt and not worth it any more.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Miller was told she wasn't coming back in December, 2014. In the three years before that moment in time, she had split play-off series with Ohio State, beat Wisconsin and lost twice to Minnesota. So really it's just losing to Minnesota twice if you are using a 3 year look back.

Last year is relevant in terms of where the program was. Her contention is that UMD was getting the best coach in women's hockey. The administration can say the program was no longer of the caliber it was when she signed her last contract.

Another metric is NCAA appearances. North Dakota has made two since the last one by UMD. So if the case is it is unreasonable to expect UMD to compete with Minnesota or Wisconsin, is it also unreasonable to expect that it can compete with UND? At that point, UMD would be correct in deciding it could no longer afford her.

 

[Eeyore]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

So really it's just losing to Minnesota twice if you are using a 3 year look back.

No, it's not. It's also not beating enough other teams during the season to make it into the NCAA tournament even if you can't beat Minnesota.

 

[Leather helmet]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Before this thing with Miller blew up, I knew just a couple of things about her, other than her five championships:
1. She had a recruiting pipeline to Europe, and
2. She cursed at players and officials. A lot.

If you are the type of coach who uses intimidation as a motivation tactic, you had best keep up to date on your championships, because your boss is likely entertaining a constant stream of players, parents, boosters, office support, and media who are complaining about your treatment of them. Hockey attracts its share of this type of coach, and if you check, for example, Tortorella's or Keenan's records you will find they stayed around only as long as they continue to make the playoffs.

 

[bc6696]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

a year before all this came down she was loudly complaining about being paid less than the men's coach

if anyone fails to grasp how this would negatively affect the environment at your place of employment
as an experiment, try it where you work and see how it affects your relationship with other workers and management

Let's pretend I work for Ford Motor Company, and am the chief executive of the passenger car division. For my argument let's say my counterpart on the Truck/SUV side is paid a considerable amount more, than I. We work the same hours and have the same experience. Is that unfair? Discrimination? Ford sells more trucks and SUV's than passenger vehicles and derives a lot more profit from that part of the of the business. While both are considered automobiles they are different products. I would love women's hockey to generate the same interest as men's - but it doesn't. It doesn't generate nearly the same revenue. It is a different product, even though it is the same vehicle (as to say, both are hockey).

~But you are correct, complaining aloud about the pay discrepancy would not be good in this theorectical situation either.

 

[mnpokecheck]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

So really it's just losing to Minnesota.....

Surprised she didn't include that in her complaint.

 

[EastFan1]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

So if the case is it is unreasonable to expect UMD to compete with Minnesota or Wisconsin, is it also unreasonable to expect that it can compete with UND? At that point, UMD would be correct in deciding it could no longer afford her.

Agree, the way North Dakota man-handled the University of Manitoba Bison this past week-end demonstrates North Dakota has far eclipsed UMD by the time she left.

 

[charlieconway]

Agree, the way North Dakota man-handled the University of Manitoba Bison this past week-end demonstrates North Dakota has far eclipsed UMD by the time she left.

Sarcastic much?

Last weekend demonstrates nothing. The last two or three seasons, however, definitely show that UND has leapfrogged UMD on the national radar.

 

[ARM]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

The last two or three seasons, however, definitely show that UND has leapfrogged UMD on the national radar.

UMD was 1-7-4 versus UND head-to-head the last three seasons, so I can see why EastFan1 went looking for that essential fact concerning U of Manitoba.

 

[Blackbeard]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

the way North Dakota man-handled the University of Manitoba Bison this past week-end

No surprises here...they do this two step every September and the U of M is not in the same "league" as most of the WCHA teams and haven't been as long as I've been following the game. They might squeak one by SCSU or MSU and that would be heralded as a major accomplishment for them.

 

[FiveHoleFrenzy]

Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?

Agree, the way North Dakota man-handled the University of Manitoba Bison this past week-end demonstrates North Dakota has far eclipsed UMD by the time she left.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0hK1wyrrAU