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Shannon Miller out at UMD?
- Thread starter L268
- Start date
mnpokecheck
Drinking the Koolaid
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
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There you go....hire her back they outshot UND last year.
charlieconway
New member
Statistics don't lie, but the people using them do. UMD should never struggle to that degree against a school like NoDak.
But even if UMD wasn't looking up to a program with far less in-state talent, Shannon Miller is still incredibly hard to deal with and the university had every right to let her contract expire and go in a different direction. Now she's left herself needing a huge payday in court, because she'll likely never make another penny coaching college hockey in the States.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Over the last three years, North Dakota's goal differential in league play has been 12, 19, and 31 goals better than UMD.
Over the last three years, North Dakota's goal differential in league play has been 12, 19, and 31 goals better than UMD.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Shannon Miller making her case (video):
Former UMD women's hockey coach describes a pattern of discrimination
http://video.startribune.com/former...cribes-a-pattern-of-discrimination/329845471/
Shannon Miller making her case (video):
Former UMD women's hockey coach describes a pattern of discrimination
http://video.startribune.com/former...cribes-a-pattern-of-discrimination/329845471/
pokechecker
Banned
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
that is how you see it, and as we've seen, your mind has been polluted by the things you read
I notice that the lawyers are trying to spruce up the facts, the document says she trained a bunch of Olympians rather than developed them like Miller has claimed in the past
so who's lying? did she develop them or train them, hopefully she'll answer that in a deposition or in court, either she has previously lied about it, or as many here know, she built her championships on bringing in experienced hockey players and tried to make students out of them. Her last year of coaching her team had a ranking by the NCAA, any lower, and it would lose a scholarship. The lowest ranking of all the DI teams. You'd think that would weigh in on UMD's decision to extend her contract or not.
it will all come down to whether the University lawyers advise to settle or not, if not, then it comes down to the jury, whether their are people on it familiar with sports, people who have worked for a living , or whether they are like Blackbird
and of course whether they are able to judge shop and get one of many MN Utopian judges who can't wait to rewrite history
that is how you see it, and as we've seen, your mind has been polluted by the things you read
I notice that the lawyers are trying to spruce up the facts, the document says she trained a bunch of Olympians rather than developed them like Miller has claimed in the past
so who's lying? did she develop them or train them, hopefully she'll answer that in a deposition or in court, either she has previously lied about it, or as many here know, she built her championships on bringing in experienced hockey players and tried to make students out of them. Her last year of coaching her team had a ranking by the NCAA, any lower, and it would lose a scholarship. The lowest ranking of all the DI teams. You'd think that would weigh in on UMD's decision to extend her contract or not.
it will all come down to whether the University lawyers advise to settle or not, if not, then it comes down to the jury, whether their are people on it familiar with sports, people who have worked for a living , or whether they are like Blackbird
and of course whether they are able to judge shop and get one of many MN Utopian judges who can't wait to rewrite history
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Blackbeard
Well-known member
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
And as we've seen, yours has been rendered pretty much vacant by the things that you don't.
Exactly, interested in just the facts ma'am, and let the chips fall where they may.
And as we've seen, yours has been rendered pretty much vacant by the things that you don't.
Exactly, interested in just the facts ma'am, and let the chips fall where they may.
Hockeysbest
New member
Say you get hired by the previous chancellor and say that previous chancellor gives you all you want! Say that chancellor leaves and a new "boss" is now not giving you all you want. Say that coach is not happy because she isn't getting her way anymore. Say that is when you have a disgruntled employee who is now being held accountable and no longer has free rein of the land... Just saying! I think this is a case of an employee who wasn't happy with the new regime because they were not women anymore women who flattered her ego and therefore what does an employee do when they are no longer wanted? They look to blame anything but themselves.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I haven't read much of this thread except for the last few posts. I apologize if I repeat what someone else has posted. However, my two cents.
The Shannon Miller lawsuit is a classic example of what happens when an employer has a very good, legitimate and non-discriminatory reason for terminating an employee, and; a) they don't trust it, b) they are worried about being second guessed by a 3rd party, or c) they are too weak to actually do the tough thing and fire someone.
What happens when you have this situation is the manager (in this case, the AD) makes two very bad mistakes. First, they try to accomplish the goal in some other way, like by suggesting retirement, making the employee's life miserable so they quit, jerking the employee around on pay or benefits, or something similar. Second, they try to bolster the basis for the termination by creating artificial reasons.
Shannon Miller should have been fired. She had one of the top programs and she has run it into the ground. UMD, with the history of their women's program and the money they were spending, had a right to expect more. The AD should have walked into her office, shook Miller's hand, thanked her for her year's of service, but told her they were not going to renew her contract because of the team's performance, and that would have been that. Her supporters in the Duluth, UMD and women's hockey community would have complained, briefly, but it would have been over.
The person who has to go here is the AD. Shannon Miller handed him her termination on a platter, and he dropped it.
I haven't read much of this thread except for the last few posts. I apologize if I repeat what someone else has posted. However, my two cents.
The Shannon Miller lawsuit is a classic example of what happens when an employer has a very good, legitimate and non-discriminatory reason for terminating an employee, and; a) they don't trust it, b) they are worried about being second guessed by a 3rd party, or c) they are too weak to actually do the tough thing and fire someone.
What happens when you have this situation is the manager (in this case, the AD) makes two very bad mistakes. First, they try to accomplish the goal in some other way, like by suggesting retirement, making the employee's life miserable so they quit, jerking the employee around on pay or benefits, or something similar. Second, they try to bolster the basis for the termination by creating artificial reasons.
Shannon Miller should have been fired. She had one of the top programs and she has run it into the ground. UMD, with the history of their women's program and the money they were spending, had a right to expect more. The AD should have walked into her office, shook Miller's hand, thanked her for her year's of service, but told her they were not going to renew her contract because of the team's performance, and that would have been that. Her supporters in the Duluth, UMD and women's hockey community would have complained, briefly, but it would have been over.
The person who has to go here is the AD. Shannon Miller handed him her termination on a platter, and he dropped it.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Not gonna lie and say I'm a fan of Schlossman, but he raises some valid points about the issue here:
http://undhockey.areavoices.com/
Not gonna lie and say I'm a fan of Schlossman, but he raises some valid points about the issue here:
http://undhockey.areavoices.com/
brookyone
Deport Right Wing Nuts
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
In response to Mr. Schlossman, let me just say, THIS!
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Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Not for the first time, the Grand Forks media displays some respect and awareness of women's hockey.
Not for the first time, the Grand Forks media displays some respect and awareness of women's hockey.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
A lot of people seem to be confusing some issues. That UMD had valid reasons to fire Miller does not necessarily mean that her lawsuit is without merit. It is possible that both things are true, that there was cause to let her go and that UMD created a hostile work environment with gender discrimination and that this also played a role in letting her go. Proving the first doesn't really address the questions of the second. So a lot of posters, as well as Schlossmen, go on at great length about things that are not completely irrelevant, but that are a lot less definitive than the writer seems to believe. The same is true of hiring another lesbian to replace Miller; there are any number of ways in which that action is compatible with Miller's claims, including that it would lead people who not really thinking through all of the possibilities to just assume that it means she must be wrong.
It's worth noting that Miller has linked the issues of declining performance with her claims of gender discrimination, both in her public comments and in her filing. She claims that the lackluster results are due to the program being starved of resources, both in absolute terms and relative to the men's hockey performance. So, again, just observing that she hasn't been to the NCAA tournament in four years and going straight to the conclusion that her lawsuit lacks merit is faulty logic. You need to actually address her points rather than ignoring them.
None of that means that I'm convinced that she has a case, just that it can't be dismissed out of hand. I find her credibility to be at least as lacking as that of the administration and she's shown enough of a tendency to blame others for things that go wrong that I'm skeptical of her claims now. But that's the sort of thing that gets sorted out in the various stages of litigation and the answers are not, at this point, obvious.
A lot of people seem to be confusing some issues. That UMD had valid reasons to fire Miller does not necessarily mean that her lawsuit is without merit. It is possible that both things are true, that there was cause to let her go and that UMD created a hostile work environment with gender discrimination and that this also played a role in letting her go. Proving the first doesn't really address the questions of the second. So a lot of posters, as well as Schlossmen, go on at great length about things that are not completely irrelevant, but that are a lot less definitive than the writer seems to believe. The same is true of hiring another lesbian to replace Miller; there are any number of ways in which that action is compatible with Miller's claims, including that it would lead people who not really thinking through all of the possibilities to just assume that it means she must be wrong.
It's worth noting that Miller has linked the issues of declining performance with her claims of gender discrimination, both in her public comments and in her filing. She claims that the lackluster results are due to the program being starved of resources, both in absolute terms and relative to the men's hockey performance. So, again, just observing that she hasn't been to the NCAA tournament in four years and going straight to the conclusion that her lawsuit lacks merit is faulty logic. You need to actually address her points rather than ignoring them.
None of that means that I'm convinced that she has a case, just that it can't be dismissed out of hand. I find her credibility to be at least as lacking as that of the administration and she's shown enough of a tendency to blame others for things that go wrong that I'm skeptical of her claims now. But that's the sort of thing that gets sorted out in the various stages of litigation and the answers are not, at this point, obvious.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
I agree. Even granting Schlossman's thesis, we don't know if there was bias or discrimination at the University or the athletic department. But I think Schlossman is performing a service by stating the other side to the story from the one "the cherry pickers" state by hauling out the "5 national championships" stat all by itself for public consumption.
I agree. Even granting Schlossman's thesis, we don't know if there was bias or discrimination at the University or the athletic department. But I think Schlossman is performing a service by stating the other side to the story from the one "the cherry pickers" state by hauling out the "5 national championships" stat all by itself for public consumption.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Where should UMD expect to finish, given its competition, academic status, location, pool of local talent ... ?
Where should UMD expect to finish, given its competition, academic status, location, pool of local talent ... ?
ARM
Fan of chipmunk-like mascots.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
The reason much of it is ignored is posters have no way of knowing what goes on in the corridors or meeting rooms of UMD or AMSOIL arena, so we have nothing to add on the subject. I'm sure the two sides will paint vastly different pictures of the environment, and the jury will have to decide what it believes. It is possible that certain things Miller claims could be true (such as a slur being posted on her office door) without UMD being at fault, if it is determined that the university took appropriate action in response. She claims nothing was done, but there may be a documented action taken. Posters have no way of knowing, so it becomes all speculation. We can, however, look up wins and losses, so that's where we focus.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
Sure. Let me amend my statement: in order to come to any sort of strong conclusion as to whether Miller's suit has merit, you need to know the answers to these questions. No one on these boards has done anything to do that, and so they really ought to state their belief that the lawsuit is without merit with a lot less certainty than they do. Mostly, they seem to be under the impression that it takes a lot less to disprove Miller's claims than it actually does. This is a frequent problem with the assessment of discrimination claims.
Sure. Let me amend my statement: in order to come to any sort of strong conclusion as to whether Miller's suit has merit, you need to know the answers to these questions. No one on these boards has done anything to do that, and so they really ought to state their belief that the lawsuit is without merit with a lot less certainty than they do. Mostly, they seem to be under the impression that it takes a lot less to disprove Miller's claims than it actually does. This is a frequent problem with the assessment of discrimination claims.
giwan
Really??!!
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
100% correct, to use the lame excuse of money was a mistake.
100% correct, to use the lame excuse of money was a mistake.
Re: Shannon Miller out at UMD?
When she was told she wasn't coming back in December, 2014, she had wins over North Dakota, Bemidji, Ohio State and a sweep of Cornell in late November. Also had a shoot out win over Minnesota and sweeps over Lindenwood, Mankato and St. Cloud leading up to the AD's decision. I'm not sure where UMD was ranked when she was terminated in December but that might be interesting. AD was probably thinking money was the safest reason to non-renew.
When she was told she wasn't coming back in December, 2014, she had wins over North Dakota, Bemidji, Ohio State and a sweep of Cornell in late November. Also had a shoot out win over Minnesota and sweeps over Lindenwood, Mankato and St. Cloud leading up to the AD's decision. I'm not sure where UMD was ranked when she was terminated in December but that might be interesting. AD was probably thinking money was the safest reason to non-renew.